Maya Forstater on front page of Daily Mail

[EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn]

Yes, it’s the Mail. No, I’m not apologising. This is fantastic!

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10674135/Three-women-launch-significant-female-movement-Suffragettes.html

'wafflewinethanks'

Smacked in the face at speakers corner, threatened with a bomb, expelled from political parties, sent rape threats, death threats, arrested, had the police sicked on them, fired, targeted, harassed, and frightened

It's unbelievable that it isn't a bigger issue than it is for the press.

The DM is only interested in the GC ideology from an extreme right wing perspective

I'd be interested to know what this extreme right wing perspective is, is it:

Keeping rapists out of female prisons?
Preventing female prisoners being sexually abused by TW inmates?

Highlighting the abhorrence that a woman could not access a Rape Crisis Centre and expect and be provided with a single sex service?

Highlighting the sheer unfairness in TW competing in female sports and giving the females on the receiving end of this a chance to voice their feelings about it?

Highlighting the idiocy of and the removal of the privacy, dignity and safety of women by allowing any man who says he is a woman into female changing rooms?

The DM/MoS have run stories on all those, are these the extreme right wing views you are on about?

@BenCooperisaGod

And what fucking media should they be using then? Semaphore? Smoke signals? We cant even use embroidery or haberdashery, as they have been labelled transphobic already. So, enough with the finger wagging already and wade in behind them so next time they might have a choice of paper.

This discussion is reminding me of the "alphabet is transphobic" poet www.queerty.com/trans-poet-jos-charles-rearranges-alphabet-survive-ferocity-body-20190616 So definitely we need something without words in it. Cuneiform symbols might do

I hate the DM - viscerally hate it. I hate The Sun. I think they cause misery and undermine democracy in this country. It is rampantly and actively works to divide society. Its not just that its a 'right wing' paper. The fact its got the biggest circulation in the country is depressing because it plays to peoples worst insecurities about Muslims, refugees, gay people . That's why I cannot buy the whole ignoring this just to promote your cause. I don't trust that they aren't using it to further polarise the issue.
So people on here accusing me of finger wagging and being purist either don't realise or don't care how much damage this sort of media does. They will minimise it and demonise those that don't want to use it. Don't worry that they could become useful idiots of those who wish to divide us further.

But it appears that makes a fucking idiot and people being not so funny taking the piss.

UnconditionalSurrender

No one ignores the politics of the Daily Mail. It's just that most people here are quite sensible enough to see when they're being given one side of an issue. And equally, when they're not.

Many women here could write a thesis on transgender ideology, so they, more than anyone, will be able to tell you whether or not the Daily Mail is spinning it.

They're not.

What are you frightened of exactly?

Do you think that the women reading Maya's article will suddenly start shouting that they want to bring back the death penalty or something, because they read it in the daily mail?

It's the fact it's so widely read, isn't it? Because keeping quiet, #nodebate and hitching causes which erase women as a sex class is what those furtively pushing gender ideology want.

Lots of people read the Mail. Lots of people will be horrified to discover what FWR has known about for years.

Those people will agree that males shouldn't get to say magic words and access women's spaces.

This is what people don't like about it being in the Mail. I'm now convinced.

Good summing up article in the Times also today, I hope that's a suitable enough media organ.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4519391-An-excellent-article-in-the-Times-this-evening

Datun
I think if the campaign becomes strongly associated with questionable outlets- GB news, DM etc then the issue becomes more polarised. It's an extra layer to get through if you want the centrists, the left wingers, the not bothered to even engage with your arguments.
I understand plenty about transgender ideology. I understand why these women feel that any publicity is better than none, but I have become more uncomfortable with the use of more right wing publications to promote the cause over the last year or so. Not because as people on here seem to think I'm a Tory hating commie but mostly because I think it turns a lot people off so they don't even bother engaging. I'm not alone in this thinking. There are arguments on lots of forums about it. I don't think dismissing it as some sort of pearl clutching anti DM reader is fair. But then I've become really disheartened over the last year especially at the lack of nuance in a lot of GC discussions. It used to be fairly respectful and issues discussed. Now its just a pile on of you're either with us or against us and fuck that shit.
I still hate the DM and all who sail with her and will never be convinced using it is anything other than dancing with the devil.

Well you certainly come across as Tory hating but that seems to be a badge of honour for certain people. To have a visceral hatred of a newspaper is very extreme and to detest that it is widely read indicates you pretty much detest those that read it too, and you talk about a lack of nuance, your thinking is polarised.

@Datun

Honestly.

Does my bloody head in.

Smacked in the face at speakers corner, threatened with a bomb, expelled from political parties, sent rape threats, death threats, arrested, had the police sicked on them, fired, targeted, harassed, and frightened.

But if they talk to the bloody Daily Mail?

Shrieks of pass me the smelling salts, and where is my fainting couch.

Fuck off.

What datun said

Always..l

Where did the I come from 😳

To detest that it is widely read indicates you pretty much detest those that read it too

Eh? No it doesn't. Your statement is not even logical. How can I argue with someone who is extrapolating something from one statement just so they can insult me. And it says nothing about how polarised my thinking is or isn't.

It's a perfectly logical statement you have a visceral hatred of the paper, it's the most read in the Country presumably those are the people you don't want to read about the issue?

Sorry but that's even less logical.

No one ignores the politics of the Daily Mail. It's just that most people here are quite sensible enough to see when they're being given one side of an issue. And equally, when they're not

Im not keen on the daily mail…its a bit of a comic and I agree that it stokes division, however it still has very qualified journalists that can be like a dog with a bone, plastic bags and stephen lawrence being two subjects that spring to mind

When the sexual assaults happened in cologne none of the apparently ‘good’ newspapers admitted there was a problem…all those lasses sexually assaulted and it either didn’t happen or was their fault for having mobile phones…that seems pretty women hating to me

(I wouldn’t touch some newspapers with a pole BUT i do know that the same journalists work for all sorts of different newspapers…it would be very stupid to think that a journalist for the guardian is any better than one from the sun)

'So people on here accusing me of finger wagging and being purist either don't realise or don't care how much damage this sort of media does.'

Erm, I am not sure who you think is on this board, but I can assure you we understand how the media works very well. You would be better off having a good long think about why the left wing press has thrown us under the bus and what that means about today's left wing politics in general. It certainly has clarified that 'left = good, right = bad' no longer works for women anymore. Perhaps it never did, but now it is in the open. I do hope Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens are taking note. As for the WEP, words fail me.

What is the alternative then?
Guardian, nope.
Independent, Nope
Party politics, nope
Twitter, nope
Facebook, nope.
Times, maybe, but the readership is tiny and i don't much like their politics either.

Every single outlet that you would likely not object to has been captured.

So, do we roll over? Be nice? Just watch this all unfold, whilst being prosecuted for stickers and ribbons?

A platform like this is essential to turning the tide before it is too late, and the lunacy is enshrined in law and we will be America. The stakes are too high to be squeamish about working with the DM.

@UnconditionalSurrender

I hate the DM - viscerally hate it. I hate The Sun. I think they cause misery and undermine democracy in this country. It is rampantly and actively works to divide society. Its not just that its a 'right wing' paper. The fact its got the biggest circulation in the country is depressing because it plays to peoples worst insecurities about Muslims, refugees, gay people . That's why I cannot buy the whole ignoring this just to promote your cause. I don't trust that they aren't using it to further polarise the issue. So people on here accusing me of finger wagging and being purist either don't realise or don't care how much damage this sort of media does. They will minimise it and demonise those that don't want to use it. Don't worry that they could become useful idiots of those who wish to divide us further.

But it appears that makes a fucking idiot and people being not so funny taking the piss.

So we just dismiss all of the people who read the country's most popular news paper and don't speak to them because they're bigots? This leftie elitism is exactly the attitude that the left had over Brexit, and that lost them the red wall seats.

@UnconditionalSurrender

Datun I think if the campaign becomes strongly associated with questionable outlets- GB news, DM etc then the issue becomes more polarised. It's an extra layer to get through if you want the centrists, the left wingers, the not bothered to even engage with your arguments. I understand plenty about transgender ideology. I understand why these women feel that any publicity is better than none, but I have become more uncomfortable with the use of more right wing publications to promote the cause over the last year or so. Not because as people on here seem to think I'm a Tory hating commie but mostly because I think it turns a lot people off so they don't even bother engaging. I'm not alone in this thinking. There are arguments on lots of forums about it. I don't think dismissing it as some sort of pearl clutching anti DM reader is fair. But then I've become really disheartened over the last year especially at the lack of nuance in a lot of GC discussions. It used to be fairly respectful and issues discussed. Now its just a pile on of you're either with us or against us and fuck that shit. I still hate the DM and all who sail with her and will never be convinced using it is anything other than dancing with the devil.

It's not becoming associated with questionable outlets.

Eg, it's very much associated with Mumsnet. Which appears largely left-wing, particularly FWR. Feminists in general tend to be fairly left-wing.

WPUK - all Labour party women involved in the unions. Fair play for women, Nic is left wing as far as I know.

Maya Forstarter. Pretty much comes across as unquestionable integrity from head to toe.

J. K. Rowling. Gave a million quid to the Labour Party.

I'm not sure where you get this idea that gender critical feminism is being aligned with the right wing.

Might I suggest that you're reading the wrong papers?

FS. I didn't say they were bigots. I don't hate all DM readers, my mother is one, but the paper itself, lies and manipulates people in the worst possible way.

I get everyone thinks it's a great idea but I don't. In return I've been patronised, insulted and told to Fuck Off. Told to go away and have a long hard think because people here must be better informed than me. There is a debate to be had about aligning your cause with a certain section of the press, for whatever reason, but this is obviously not the place to have it. There were a few people who agreed with me but they probably got scared off by the vitriol. If you're not with us you're agin us.
So I'll just fuck off.

Did you read the Guardian coverage of the WiSpa incident? How about NYE in cologne. Them, the labour party, the lib dems, twitter, the womans fucking equality party, the fecking Fawcett society, throwing the most vulnerable women under a bus over and over and over.

I am seeing less and less in them to respect and follow.

You seem volatile and to see the world in a black and white way - you sound very young.

It’s more nuanced than you realise. Labour / Guardian good Daily Mail / Tory bad - I used to think like that and I cringe frankly, The Cologne incident opened my eyes on that.

So what do you suggest Unconditional? What’s your plan to get The Guardian to cover Women’s concerns? Do you really think that Maya & co wouldn’t kill to be in The Guardian discussing this? The Guardian wouldn’t touch it with a 100 ft pole

How do you think we can persuade the guardian to cover it?

I had a look at the Guardian homepage just now - one one-sided article on conversion therapy, one one-sided commentary on politics this week and the woman question, and one piece on the cyclist with the weaselly phrase that they were not allowed to race "after several riders held talks about boycotting the event in protest as they felt Bridges had an unfair advantage."

Barely an acknowledgement of the issues from an FWR perspective (challenging of affirmation-only therapy for gender-questioning kids, maintaining women's legal protections as per the Equality Act, and fairness in female sport, respectively)

They really really DGAF about us. More power to Maya and everyone else using other platforms to reach people