Maya Forstater on front page of Daily Mail

[EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn]

Yes, it’s the Mail. No, I’m not apologising. This is fantastic!

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10674135/Three-women-launch-significant-female-movement-Suffragettes.html

IIRC it was Sanchez Manning who did quite a bit for the Mail in 2019(??) about "charities" sending breast binders to young girls in the post. So they have covered various angles of this story as it's developed.

A quick wave of apology to anyone who has read my concerns about preference falsification on previous occasions.

Preference falsification, according to the economist Timur Kuran, is the act of misrepresenting one’s wants under perceived social pressures. It happens frequently in everyday life, such as when we tell the host of a dinner party that we are enjoying the food when we actually find it bland. In Private Truths, Public Lies , Kuran argues convincingly that the phenomenon not only is ubiquitous but has huge social and political consequences. Drawing on diverse intellectual traditions, including those rooted in economics, psychology, sociology, and political science, Kuran provides a unified theory of how preference falsification shapes collective decisions, orients structural change, sustains social stability, distorts human knowledge, and conceals political possibilities.

A common effect of preference falsification is the preservation of widely disliked structures. Another is the conferment of an aura of stability on structures vulnerable to sudden collapse. When the support of a policy, tradition, or regime is largely contrived, a minor event may activate a bandwagon that generates massive yet unanticipated change.

In distorting public opinion, preference falsification also corrupts public discourse and, hence, human knowledge. So structures held in place by preference falsification may, if the condition lasts long enough, achieve increasingly genuine acceptance. The book demonstrates how human knowledge and social structures co-evolve in complex and imperfectly predictable ways, without any guarantee of social efficiency.

www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/cass-sunstein-how-change-happens/

There are few mainstream outlets that will cover relevant stories. When MSM does run an item, it has a perspective that is not gender critical: IPSO also restricts the items that can be reported and how they can be reported.

Look how often MSM slots are cancelled because Stonewall or individuals refuse to appear on a programme with a GC woman or advocate. A case in point is the recent cancellation of the GOSH event. We're all familiar with the dis-invitations of women from conferences, workshops, journal positions etc.

The de-platforming of women and the gender critical perspective from social media facilitates preference falsification as it is only too easy never to see these perspectives and stories. MN is one of the few platforms to host our discussions; even so it's in a naughty corner with additional rules and restrictions. It's common for breakout threads in Chat or AIBU to end up here because so many people don't want it in the general or high-traffic areas.

Lifton outlines the Eight Criteria for Thought Reform and 2 feel relevant to some of the discussion about the appropriateness of media outlets:

Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.

I wouldn’t mind but you wait for some celebrity to speak out…someone who writes movingly about their struggles and the struggles of trans people, who shows support for those trans people and who ticks all the right boxes

Left leaning
Charitable
Clever
Generous with their time
Well known
Just a Lovely human being
No skeletons in their closet

Then she shows up…represents and is still slammed and called transphobic

So its all very well having a pop at the daily mail

But the second a ‘good’ newspaper steps up they will be slammed as well

The left has strategically deplatformed all feminists who speak up about this.

If your sister was in prison, what would be more important to you? That feminists worked to improve prison conditions and spoke to anyone who would listen, or that they prioritised compliance with the Left's orders that no-one speak to the Daily Mail?

After a while, it looks like an ongoing abusive relationship between the male Left and leftwing women. They won't do anything to help us; in fact, they publicly dump us in front of their friends in order to impress the rest of the male Left. But they expect to have a say in who we speak to after they ended the relationship!

A look at the guardian website tonight will tell you exactly why Maya is in the Mail and not the guardian

Rufus makes a good point.

Even The Guardian and the BBC have been slammed as transphobic by TRAs, yet they still won’t honestly run stories.

Left wing papers will not publish this stuff.
If the Mail et al don’t run it, it doesn’t get publicised.

What is the right choice between right wing media or silence? (That’s to those who are slagging off women who talk to the Mail.)

Left wing papers like The Guardian have forced this situation by going silent and ignoring women’s concerns (if not being outright hostile).

Nice one @RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

@VestofAbsurdity

If the length, depth and breadth of your thinking is that all Tories and evil and the Daily Mail and GB News are bad so no-one must read them or listen to them then you are the problem.

Purity spirals are a whisker away from totalitarianism, you can be cool with that, I am not.

This.

@UnconditionalSurrender

FS. I didn't say they were bigots. I don't hate all DM readers, my mother is one, but the paper itself, lies and manipulates people in the worst possible way.

I get everyone thinks it's a great idea but I don't. In return I've been patronised, insulted and told to Fuck Off. Told to go away and have a long hard think because people here must be better informed than me. There is a debate to be had about aligning your cause with a certain section of the press, for whatever reason, but this is obviously not the place to have it. There were a few people who agreed with me but they probably got scared off by the vitriol. If you're not with us you're agin us.
So I'll just fuck off.

What is the alternative though?

The Guardian? A newspaper which writes 'poor imprisoned transwoman' articles about men who have committed horrible crimes against women and girls, and doesn't even bother to mention their crimes?

A newspaper which takes an incident of women feeling completely violated by a naked male coming into their space, paints the women as 'right wing hoaxers' and then glosses over the fact that that male was actually a convicted sex offender?

A newspaper which employs Owen Jones, who has basically become a left wing Katie Hopkins?

Lying, manipulating people in the worst possible way?

That Guardian? Would that have been better?

Billy Bragg has said that it’s not okay for women to put things in the DM so fingers crossed Maya retracts it asap and apologised to Billy.

Disappointing she didn’t check it was okay with him first to be honest.

Well done Datun on having a good old swear: I reckon you earned that right.
Loving this thread. Read it all, popped my coat on and trundled off to the local garage where I bought the last remaining copy of the Daily Mail. Never, ever thought I would do that but guess what, I’m going to buy a paper that publishes a feminist article by the brilliant Maya Forster. I would have loved The Guardian to have published it but they won’t so what’s a feminist to do?
The sunlight is just lovely today so I might do some digging for Raquel….

@Makemakee

“When you realise that a judge actually ruled that believing in biological sex and that it matters was a 'belief not worthy of respect in a democratic society' then yes, it doesn't get much more significant for women.“

100% the above.

This finding was 'chilling' .....my first response was but I think the same as her.....how dare a judge say that this view 99% people agree with, isn't worthy of respect in a democratic society....what can I do about this?......how has this happened?....

@Movingonup22

Billy Bragg has said that it’s not okay for women to put things in the DM so fingers crossed Maya retracts it asap and apologised to Billy.

Disappointing she didn’t check it was okay with him first to be honest.

Billy Bragg does, however, think it's okay for him to be interviewed on the subject of himself, the Great Leftwing Billy Bragg, in the...

Wait for it...

Wait for it...

The Torygrap Telegraph!

I spotted this thread when it had reached page 4 this morning. I then had to go out for most of the day, ferrying my mum to medical appointments.

I couldn’t care less that it’s the DM. My jaw was near the floor when I saw the thread. Whilst waiting for mum to finish an appointment, I walked up to the nearest shop and, for the first time in over 10 years, handed over money for a physical newspaper.

Having those quotes from politicians is blooming genius. I’m definitely going to be sharing the online version with a couple of people (baby steps, but better than nothing).

Part of me did think am not sure about releasing this on 1 April. But maybe that’s also genius - “nope, it’s really not a joke, this is where we’re at”.

I’ll definitely be emailing my local candidates. I’ve lived in London and am now more rural - I have NEVER been canvassed at home by any political party. So, email it has to be.

Billy Bragg does, however, think it's okay for him to be interviewed on the subject of himself, the Great Leftwing Billy Bragg, in the...

Wait for it...

Wait for it...

The Torygrap Telegraph!

Oh dear.

I honestly don't think I've seen a single person ever express a challenge to gender critical feminism without coming out with something deceitful, misogynistic, hypocritical, embarrassingly illogical or just plain bat shit.

Ever.

I'll share one feature on him. It's a while back, but the subject matter is deliciously apposite. I've hear many women of childbearing age suffer from irony deficiency, so... no wait, that's iron deficiency, isn't it. Sorry, as you were.

headline in 2014

Billy Bragg: ‘I look at the news and despair for my 20-year-old son’

The musician and activist tells Theo Merz why men need a forum to share their concerns

Billy Bragg turned his thoughts to what masculinity means long before he was asked to participate in this weekend’s Being A Man festival at the Southbank Centre in London. Last year the singer - as well known for his political activism as he is for his music - wrote Handyman Blues, a song aimed at exploring what it is to be male in 21st century Britain.

“It’s just me saying that I’m no good at fixing a plug - it takes me ages - but I can write a song saying how much I love you. Does that make me a worse man?” he asks.

Now he will have a chance to explore these ideas further at the first Being A Man festival - a weekend which will see Grayson Perry, Alastair Campbell and others discuss their experiences of masculinity as well as featuring workshops on subjects like depression, promiscuity and race.Bragg will appear for an evening of music and discussion with the rapper Akala, comedian Phill Jupitus and singer Tom Robinson, which will close the festival on Sunday evening.He will also take part in an event on the Saturday evening with novelist Nick Hornby and designer Wayne Hemingway.

“I think men need a place where we can talk about things that are a problem,” Bragg explains when asked why he was so keen to be involved. “I don’t think any man who’s watched the news since Christmas can feel comfortable with what’s been going on with Operation Yewtree, with Lord Rennard, with those men who were convicted in Peterborough. I look at the TV and I despair for my 20 year old son.

“I don’t think any of us can be complacent. I think there’s a responsibility for all of us to be putting out a message. I’m hoping that Being A Man will open up a can of worms and allow us to start talking about these issues.” Bragg bemoans the lack of a "blokesnet" - a Dadsnet does exist, but it has nothing like the same scope as its female counterpart - and other online forums where this discussion could otherwise happen.

But despite his interest in the festival and the issues it is is likely to raise, Bragg is quick to play down the notion that men are undergoing a "crisis of masculinity".

“When men went off to fight in the First World War, then came back and women were working in factories and had the vote - that was a crisis of masculinity,” he says.

“What we’ve got now is a change, and changes happen all the time. The only reason it’s being called a crisis is that middle class white blokes are having to change their attitudes about some things, and a lot of middle class white blokes have columns in the newspapers.”

And what would he say to those who felt an evening of music around the subject of masculinity might sound a little, well, touchy-feely? “What’s wrong with touchy-feely? What’s wrong with being a little bit compassionate to one another and talking about our failings? It might be a little bit odd, but that’s what it takes to get the discussion going.”

For more information, and for tickets, see [link to the show he was promoting at the time]

www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/10603033/Billy-Bragg-I-look-at-the-news-and-I-despair-for-my-20-year-old-son.html

So there you go. Billy Bragg feels entitled to talk about men's issues and promote his own show in the Telegraph.

Maya Forstater can't talk about women's issues in the Daily Mail though. Sez Billy.

So there you go. Billy Bragg feels entitled to talk about men's issues and promote his own show in the Telegraph.

Maya Forstater can't talk about women's issues in the Daily Mail though. Sez Billy.

Crikey, how can you talk about a crisis of masculinity, and then exercise the biggest male entitlement evah 🙄

Wait, what? Being A Man festival? Doesn't sound very #inclusive does it?

The thing about seeing men convicted of child abuse is that it upsets one for one's... adult male children. Apparently. I'm still very confused about that bit.

Oh, here are some bits from 2019. He had released another album, so popped off to promote it in the Telegraph in the music section.

Here are some highlights that are still relevant in 2022.

[Billy on the importance of grabbing whatever opportunity you have to get your own music/message out there]

EXTRACT

Bragg was similarly inventive when it came to getting his own music played on the UK’s national broadcaster. On the same day that he’d hand-delivered a copy of his debut album, 1983’s Life’s A Riot With Spy Vs Spy, to the BBC’s Egton House Studio in the shadow of Broadcasting House, he and some friendswere listening to the David ‘Kid’ Jensen show on a transistor radio following a game of football in Hyde Park.

During a link withJohn Peel, whose own show followed Jensen’s, the veteran broadcaster told the listeners that he’d “do anything” for a mushroom biryani. Observing the first rule of punk rock – Make Something Happen – Billy Bragg returned to the BBC, this time equipped with a takeaway.

Peel himself took receipt of the dish in reception, and that night played Life’s A Riot’s… opening track, The Milkman Of Human Kindness, albeit at the wrong speed. The DJ then told his listeners that he would have played the song anyway, even without the kindness of a hand-delivered curry.

“The Peel show particularly was absolutely crucial for anyone who was making music outside the mainstream,” says Bragg. “It wasn’t only his eclectic tastes, it was also the people who liked different kinds of music who gathered there in big numbers. It was the only real place on a national radio station where you could hear anything like it.”

[Billy on how 'orrible gatekeeping is]

“The thing I didn’t like about the new romantics was that they put a geezer on the door who said whether or not you could come in,” he says. “That seemed to me to be the antithesis of what the war fought by punk was about. So what I was doing was a reaction against that, and Spandau Ballet was the prime example of that I suppose.”

Taken from here: www.telegraph.co.uk/music/interviews/billy-bragg-interview-cant-watch-question-time-like-thecoliseum/

Figures from the Press Gazette show that the Daily Mail is the biggest online newspaper in the world (ahead of the NY Times). In January of this year it had 369million visits in the month (The Sun, as a comparison only received 98.1million visits)

The ability to get a story to an audience of that size is an amazing opportunity, countless people will see the headline with a sizeable percentage going on to read more of the article.

Importantly politicians are aware that this issue is now gaining more and more traction and visibility in exactly the tabloid news outlets they know influence voter opinion in the UK. That in itself is a good reason to welcome the coverage.

It would be wonderful if Woman's Rights groups and campaigns could secure such coverage in a range of media outlets. Surely the question should be why are the likes of The Guardian or The Independent or The Mirror not choosing to report on these issues and developments?

I'll save my criticism for those Editors and journalists with their silence or imbalance rather than those actually putting the story front and centre for a mass audience.

Importantly politicians are aware that this issue is now gaining more and more traction and visibility in exactly the tabloid news outlets they know influence voter opinion in the UK. That in itself is a good reason to welcome the coverage.

This. It's not just about who's reading it. It's about the leverage that provides one with.

Labour can't keep allowing themselves to look like out of touch, unhinged muppets. And the DM reaching millions of people will hasten that realisation.

And to put it another way, do you think Labour MP Lisa Nandy is thrilled to see her photo and quote saying rapists should be accommodated in prison according to their own preference , in the biggest online newspaper site in the world?

Lots of people in Wigan read the DM too, and perhaps had no idea this is what their MP believes.

This type of coverage might just remind MPs willing to throw women under the bus that this is no longer a niche issue, suppressed by intimidation on SM. It's out in the wide open, and they are going to have to account for such things from now on.

That's the way ideology works: even when the Mail is right and the Guardian is wrong, the Mail is the wrong one.

This is what I wonder. If it's not about the work they do, then what makes a paper good or bad?

When push comes to shove, most of the major newspapers are mixed. There is truly a spectrum in terms of good vs poor content, which is rather different again than content you agree with vs content you don't. Lots of papers also vary over time as far as that goes.

Papers also can contain contradictory viewpoints. In a lot of ways it's better to think in terms of writers than the paper as a whole, even some publications that are largely garbage can have the odd writer worth reading.

@Fluffymule

And to put it another way, do you think Labour MP Lisa Nandy is thrilled to see her photo and quote saying rapists should be accommodated in prison according to their own preference , in the biggest online newspaper site in the world?

Lots of people in Wigan read the DM too, and perhaps had no idea this is what their MP believes.

This type of coverage might just remind MPs willing to throw women under the bus that this is no longer a niche issue, suppressed by intimidation on SM. It's out in the wide open, and they are going to have to account for such things from now on.

I'll never get over that. Women who are women don't get to choose who they are vulnerable around do they??

Such blatant dick pandering.

Surely the question should be why are the likes of The Guardian or The Independent or The Mirror not choosing to report on these issues and developments?

Yes, that would be the rational question, yet for some reason women get flak for speaking to the 'wrong' people about it.