Gender argument - caught in the middle

[Baggingarea]

I feel totally caught in the middle in this brave new world of gender ID and I guess I’m just looking for somewhere to vent without getting piled on.

I just think the argument has become so unbelievably divided that there’s no room for mediation any more.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women?

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

I just hate how I can’t feel like I can’t say these things publicly without being branded a terf or a gender traitor. Stifling debate like this is not healthy!

Don’t worry. None of this makes you sound like a terf. You’re off the island and in the clear blue water.

Men pose the same threats to women and girls, whether or not they say they are trans.

In fact, 20% of male prisoners are there for sexual related offences, and this rises to 50% for men who say they are trans. So not hard to find these mysterious criminals is it?

Why shouldn't we be protective of our rights?

Who was it who said #NoDebate?

Trans women aren't being thrown to the wolves in sport - women are. Is that what you meant?

You've got a nerve, coming on here with a slur like that - while pretending to be oh so reasonable. I'll give you that.

@FreelanceFiona

Trans women aren't being thrown to the wolves in sport - women are. Is that what you meant?

Yes poster seems to have confused their terms. Some people seem to think a 'transwoman' is a man who presents as a woman but a 'trans woman' is a woman who presents as a man. It is very confusing and the TRAs benefit from this confusion. OP - I object to women defending their LEGAL sex-based rights being called 'mean girls' though.

No I mean trans women are. Yes it’s unfair on biological women but at the end of the day who is letting them compete? They shouldn’t be the subject of all this hats because sports officials have buried their heads in the sand.

Sorry I meant somebody born male. I just don’t get why saying let’s not be horrendous to an individual is oppressing womens legal rights? There should be a middle ground where everyone (or at least most of us) are happy. Sorry if I’m naive.

@Baggingarea

No I mean trans women are. Yes it’s unfair on biological women but at the end of the day who is letting them compete? They shouldn’t be the subject of all this hats because sports officials have buried their heads in the sand.

I think the threats of doxxing, rape and death show why people are petrified and bury their heads in the sand, if it just means women lose out. It's only women. Who gives a shit about women?

‘I just don’t get why saying let’s not be horrendous to an individual is oppressing womens legal rights?’

Define ‘being horrendous to an individual’ and we can all consider it?

So which side is issuing rape threats, death threats and enduring women lose jobs? Maybe go to those people and ask them to #bekind? Talk to them about not calling people names and dehumanising people.

I guess you are right @AlisonDonut but also who cares about women and also trans women. Both play second fiddle I suppose.

Does 'naive' now mean 'disingenuous'?

My rights as a woman are not up for grabs to any man who claims to feel like a woman (whatever that means) and most importantly they are not for men or other women to take away from me without my consent

I think both sides are calling names - and the bekind crew are the worst for it (no matter what side they are on!) That’s why I feel caught in the middle. I am sure there are plenty like me.

Wolves have not been native to the British Isles for centuries.

There has been a number of campaign's to try reintroduce them as unlike Europe there is no land links to allow wolves repopulate by natural roaming

They have an interesting history

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_in_Great_Britain

@Baggingarea

I guess you are right *@AlisonDonut* but also who cares about women and also trans women. Both play second fiddle I suppose.

I always read things these ays through the lens of 'who loses out here". In every instance, women lose out to trans women so how you can say trans women are playing 'second fiddle' I have no idea.

All I know is the tide is most definitely turning, what with all the recent kerfuffle and the volume on people coming here to tell us all off going up to 11.

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask women to sacrifice their own rights to protect another group from discrimination. We are not the one being violent or abusive.

If being honest about the material reality of biological sex makes me a "mean girl" then so be it.

I suspect your understanding of the issues and the background is not as comprehensive as you think it is.

Lol ok this thread has confirmed my suspicions that you can’t have a reasonable conversation on this topic without being attacked. I’ll just go back to saying nothing!

I’m not saying I have a comprehensive understanding of anything. These are just my views.

I think you are conflating 2 things.

You are saying that women who want to protect their sex based rights and protections, as laid out in the Equality Act, are being mean to transwomen.

We aren't.

It is the extreme trans rights activist who have said #NoDebate

You don't see women who want to protect their rights, marching on the streets and shouting abuse at transactivists conferences. Or GC women throwing milkshakes over people.

There is one side of this debate that is extreme.

Hint - its not us.

I think both sides are calling names

No really it's not and I won't tolerate "both sides" bullshit.

@Baggingarea

I think both sides are calling names - and the bekind crew are the worst for it (no matter what side they are on!) That’s why I feel caught in the middle. I am sure there are plenty like me.

So you can provide evidence of women using rape threats and death threats then? And women getting trans people fired? If not, how can both sides be equally at fault? In what way are trans people being thrown to the wolves?

How can there be a middle ground? We either have single sex spaces, competitions and the very important statistics or we don't. If you open the door to males you can't realistically keep any male out. The proof of this is clear when you see how things have developed since the GRA
What makes you think TW are losing
Women have lost all spaces where they are vulnerable and most single sex competing

Females having boundaries really isn't being horrendous to males. And damn right females are protective of their rights, are you mad?