Gender argument - caught in the middle

[Baggingarea]

I feel totally caught in the middle in this brave new world of gender ID and I guess I’m just looking for somewhere to vent without getting piled on.

I just think the argument has become so unbelievably divided that there’s no room for mediation any more.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women?

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

I just hate how I can’t feel like I can’t say these things publicly without being branded a terf or a gender traitor. Stifling debate like this is not healthy!

I’m not saying I have a comprehensive understanding of anything.

No but perhaps we do have a comprehensive understanding and resent someone posting to tell us our refusal to capitulate is contributing to the toxicity of the "no debate". If robust discussion offends you then the may not be the place for you.

@Baggingarea

Lol ok this thread has confirmed my suspicions that you can’t have a reasonable conversation on this topic without being attacked. I’ll just go back to saying nothing!

What you were saying is women need to suck it up in case trans women get hurt feelings.

You are not looking for the middle ground OP, you just want women to STFU about their rights.
No one is throwing trans identified males to the wolves in respect of sport, they are choosing to compete in the women’s category. I wonder if you can think of a reason why? I mean why would L Thomas , who was ranked around 400 in the men’s US college swim league, want to swim against women & jump to No.1 in the female swim league? It’s a total mystery isn’t it?
Men with artificially lowered testosterone are not women.

Oh bugger my last post didn’t send. I just mean you should be able to not be classed anti trans for questioning why lia Thomas etc are competing. There needs to be a conversation seeing both sides of the argument without all this mad hyperbole.

Genuinely OP, Do you really think you’re the first person to come to this debate ‘in the middle’

Unfortunately there is no middle ground. No way of balancing it.

Pick a side

@Baggingarea

Oh bugger my last post didn’t send. I just mean you should be able to not be classed anti trans for questioning why lia Thomas etc are competing. There needs to be a conversation seeing both sides of the argument without all this mad hyperbole.

We’ll go and tell the other side that then. They are the ones causing all the hyperbole. Off you go. Do come back and tell us what they say.

Yes you are right I just want women to shut up. Errrrrr no! But do you see how you’ve seen that I don’t 100% agree with your point of view and I’m being called anti feminist or whatever? There’s no need to act like this.

No it’s both sides. I’ve seen gc women on twitter targeting individuals and being extremely cruel.

And by GC people, you’re not classed as anti-trans.

But if you call women “mean girls” for pointing out that people can’t literally change sex, you might be classed as not so much in the middle as you think. Reality isn’t extremism.

It's not 'mad hyperbole' to point out that sex matters.

It really does.

There is no chance of moving forward until everyone admits this simple fact.

Oooh like rape and death threat cruel, like threatening violence cruel or just stating biological facts and standing up for women’s rights cruel?

@Baggingarea

No it’s both sides. I’ve seen gc women on twitter targeting individuals and being extremely cruel.

Can you please provide some examples?

It may help set the barometer, as one person’s extremely cruel could be another persons stating an biological fact

The middle ground is third spaces. No GC person has any objection to this. TRAs do object to this.

But I’m saying both sides are being badly behaved. You all attacking me doesn’t exactly change my mind.

Also you are taking what I’m saying and leaping to conclusions. I didn’t say anything about saying it’s mean to say you can’t change sex. I’m saying that bullying individuals online is very mean girls. You are entitled to your views but then so am I. I believe trans women are trans women. It’s madness not to acknowledge that (and probably something that will get me labelled a terf).

Examples - people posting pictures of Lia Thomas and saying “you can’t tell me this is a woman”. That feels personal and hurtful.

I mention third spaces in my op so not sure about the pile on.

@Baggingarea

No it’s both sides. I’ve seen gc women on twitter targeting individuals and being extremely cruel.

You will not have seen death threats, rape threats, hammering on windows, punching and attacking women (the punched one was sixty years old), setting off smoke bombs by the Grenfell Tower, anyone proudly wearing bloodstained t shirts or taking pictures of themselves with weapons, or sharing sexual photographs regarding enjoyment of making others uncomfortable and breaking their boundaries.

You can find HUNDREDS of bits of evidence of that with a 2 second google against females who have dared to resist the removal of their rights.

You are talking about the right of a female person not to be locked up in a room or made to take a shower naked with a male convicted serial serious sex offender.

The right of a raped female to not be intimately examined by a male person who feels that the female's acceptance of their gender identity is the primary deal here and their patient's trauma and their professional duty to their patient is a very poor second.

The right of females to not end up homeless or stuck in dangerous relationships or without rape crisis services because male people will not tolerate the existence of female only services alongside the multiple options provided that are already meeting their needs.

The right of females to accessible services, resources, groups and to be permitted to assemble and talk about matters affecting them without the enforced presence and supervision of males.

Saying 'no' to a male person because a female person has a need is really not being horrendous to them regardless of their gender identity.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask women to sacrifice their own rights to protect another group from discrimination. We are not the one being violent or abusive.

If being honest about the material reality of biological sex makes me a "mean girl" then so be it.

I suspect your understanding of the issues and the background is not as comprehensive as you think it is.

This.

Honestly OP do you really think that women in here started with where we are at now?

We spent bloody years suggesting third spaces for example but we were told repeatedly we were transphobic to suggest such a thing. No one hete wants TW not to play sport, we just want them to compete with their biological sex.

Perhaps you’d like to go on a discussion board for trans ppl and suggest to them they’re being mean and see how you get on

Nobody should be bullying anybody because of their gender.
But I don't agree with trans women being able to compete in womens sports, they do have an unfair advantage.
I feel like now women can't speak up about things in fear of offended people. As a white British women I find myself having to stop giving an opinion on many things.
But we're all entitled to it🤷🏻‍♀️

Facts are not attacks

@mamabr I do agree with this.

But I’m saying both sides are being badly behaved. You all attacking me doesn’t exactly change my mind.

Why not go to r/transgender or tweet at Owen Jones and say some of these things and this #bothsides idea? Then compare and contrast the reaction you get with the one you're getting here.

@Baggingarea

Examples - people posting pictures of Lia Thomas and saying “you can’t tell me this is a woman”. That feels personal and hurtful.

Why? As has been shown, no one can actually say what a woman is, not mps, politicians or us Supreme Court nominees. So that statement is accurate. You can’t tell someone that that person is a woman because no one can say what a woman is.