Gender argument - caught in the middle

[Baggingarea]

I feel totally caught in the middle in this brave new world of gender ID and I guess I’m just looking for somewhere to vent without getting piled on.

I just think the argument has become so unbelievably divided that there’s no room for mediation any more.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women?

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

I just hate how I can’t feel like I can’t say these things publicly without being branded a terf or a gender traitor. Stifling debate like this is not healthy!

The use of male crime statistics to defend women's spaces is not an accusation that all transwoman are criminals. The crime statistics show that men commit violence and sexual crime at much higher rates than women, hence safe spaces away from men have traditionally been provided for women. By redefining womens spaces to include some men they become open to any men, and it doesn't take a huge amount thought to release that the two groups of men that will be most eager to access female spaces and therefore vulnerable women are 1) men who believe themselves to be women and 2) men who wish to harm harm women. Even if in this Venn diagram there is no over lap of circles and transwoman don't commit any crime (but the statistics show that this isn't the case, but for the sake of argument let say TW don't commit typically male crimes) do we tell the difference between men in group one and men in group two? Once you say some men are allowed to enter women's spaces you are opening those spaces to any man and that is wear the danger lies.

Maybe op needs to know. www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.makeameme.org%2Fcreated%2Fon-wednesdays-we-viv3og.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fmakeameme.org%2Fmeme%2Fon-wednesdays-we-viv3og&tbnid=z3hqHhYvNdaHnM&vet=12ahUKEwjdkJnHyu72AhWFE2MBHS3DA80QMygAegUIARCqAQ..i&docid=pXnVv0qFVHVvNM&w=600&h=338&q=mean%20girls%20memes%20wednesdays&hl=en-gb&client=safari&ved=2ahUKEwjdkJnHyu72AhWFE2MBHS3DA80QMygAegUIARCqAQ

Try again

I feel totally caught in the middle in this brave new world of gender ID and I guess I’m just looking for somewhere to vent without getting piled on.

Tell you what, drop the slurs and the shaming and maybe we can all move forward and have a discussion. Not sure quite why you thought writing an opening post that follows the usual shaming that happens on this board would get a positive reaction, but maybe you have not read much on here before.

I just think the argument has become so unbelievably divided that there’s no room for mediation any more.

And women have been attempting to discuss this now for over a decade. You must realise that 'nodebate' was a tactic used by extreme trans activists who were not interested in having the discussion. There has only been lip service to opening debate, there is absolutely no chance.

A transitioned male academic was up for an actual debate with two feminists (two separate debates) and pulled out due to pressure from their community. That first debate was to happen this week, by the way, this is not 'old news'.

A junior psychiatric conference was due to be held over the last couple of weeks where the organisers invited a wide range of views to be presented. Extreme trans activists and a trans lobby group reacted so badly that the organisers had to cancel at the last minute.

They were reported using the whistleblower process for transphobia for having Helen Joyce and Transgender Trend present. Also clinician David Bell. The event also would have allowed Dr Hilary Cass to present her interim adolescent trans health findings which basically pointed out how bad the UK GIDS is at the moment.

Again. That was just over the last week or so.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

You probably then missed the transitioned males online continually declaring that they should have exemptions for safeguarding. How should that argument go in your view?

Because I can assure you, because I have had those conversations, your way doesn't work at all. Few people are prepared to have the discussion. By the way, there are transitioned males and females who also fully supported safeguards for children and females to remain strong and to not be lowered.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this.

It is a remnant of the 'no debate' era. There are also many powerful activist voices that have silenced athletes from voicing their opinion. The UK Sports Council noted this in their report. They stated that many females felt they could not discuss this without losing their positions / sponsorship. Because the lobby groups got their first and set the tone.

Even last month it became clear that the women on Thomas' swim team had to obey the directives set out in their NDAs or face penalties. Those penalties obviously were off the team and maybe losing scholarships and maybe expulsion from their university.

Which side does that? You are accusing women of 'both sides'? There is no 'both sides'. There is a huge power differential that you may not have become informed enough to see.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women?

Sure. But in the meantime, communal changing rooms are the only option for many.

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

You are not really understanding the power differential here at all. And we absolutely know that trans people face discrimination and prejudice too. But it is also not a problem for women to fix. And certainly not at our own detriment.

I just hate how I can’t feel like I can’t say these things publicly without being branded a terf or a gender traitor. Stifling debate like this is not healthy!

Fuck off with this.

And no one on this board 'stifles' debate.

What we don't take too is emotionally manipulative posts (not saying you have down this), posts that fall into using tropes to either argue or refute points of view and particularly when those tropes lack any evidence or even robust critical thinking. If your point of view cannot survive being dissected and discussed then it is one that is not build on solid research or foundations.

Most posters who claim being 'stifled' have nothing but that to offer but will use copious amounts of shaming tactics, slurs and derogation. But the reality is, they have nothing else to contribute. And when they realise that, it makes them very uncomfortable and they flounce. Often they were only here to deliver a one line slur anyway.

Stay and discuss or go and read up on the many threads here.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

this is a good place to start and you can make up your own mind.

This

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but

And there's the 'but'.

You can tell a lot about who is prioritised by the location of the 'but' in someone's opinions.

If it helps OP, I don't think your views align with women's who are routinely called terfs.

“Mean girls” is a sexist trope, just as a starting point. Not a particularly good one, on a feminism forum.

selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

We are continually asked to prove that allowing males into women’s spaces is harmful. This is despite the fact that they were moved in without anyone asking for consent, or considering the impact. Any figures that might have been available, had police recorded sex as well as “gender identity” rather than dropping sex in favour of GI, then perhaps we could have given figures. Since the figures have deliberately been obscured (presumably because they would show that transitioning doesn’t affect male behaviour patterns) we are left with pointing out individual cases.

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

Do you understand why women are protective of their rights? It doesn’t sound like it. Women’s rights are very recently given, and now under threat of being removed, yet you are expecting us to be empathetic to those who are working hard to remove them?

If there was any sign at all that transactivists recognised the threat to women’s rights and were willing to look for ways forward which did not erode women’s rights, then perhaps there could be a way forward. Instead we are met with the outright lie that women’s rights will not be affected. Treating us like idiots isn’t going to work, because we’re not idiots.

And you have entirely underestimated the intensity of the anger women feel against Thomas, who has ruined the final year at university of many, many young women in a way that will make them feel small and humiliated for many years to come, and has exposed a number of them to an uncovered penis in their changing room. I realise those in charge should have prevented Thomas from the humiliation of demonstrating selfish behaviour to thousands of people, but if you think women should be polite in the face of that selfishness, then I think you are very unreasonable.

Anyway, you’re in luck. Every thought you’ve expressed is transactivist, so nobody anywhere will call you a t*rf.

Anyway, you’re in luck. Every thought you’ve expressed is transactivist, so nobody anywhere will call you a t*rf.

They would though, because she expressed extremely mild support for third spaces, and a vague nod towards fair sports and "having a conversation".

@Baggingarea

And I do feel a lot of what I’m saying in good faith is being twisted a little with no benefit of the doubt. It’s immediately made me feel a bit defensive, just being totally honest here.

If you feel that your words are being twisted, perhaps you could re-enforce what you are saying by specifically and clearly replying to and challenging any post that is twisting what you are saying.

Whether you feel defensive, or that you are not being given the benefit of the doubt, is not relevant to any point you are trying to make.
Write clearly with well-defined arguments and there will be no need to give you the benefit of the doubt because there will be no doubt about what you are saying.

I get the sense that you prioritise feelings and emotions over clear and logical debate. That just won't cut it when women's right and protections are at stake.
Are you the type of person that hates arguments and wants to make peace? Sometimes peace is not achieved by trying to find a 'middle-ground', no matter how emotionally appealing that might sound.

Yes, stifling debate is not healthy, so please do debate - that means with facts and logic, not appeals to emotion.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Anyway, you’re in luck. Every thought you’ve expressed is transactivist, so nobody anywhere will call you a t*rf.

They would though, because she expressed extremely mild support for third spaces, and a vague nod towards fair sports and "having a conversation".

True. I’ve just reread the paragraph about sports and you are technically correct. I confess I read this sentence and expected it to be the poi where OP finally remembered to consider women, but then didn’t.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves.

My eyes were rolling so much after the implication that Thomas (the most obvious recent example) was the one being mistreated in that scenario that I missed the latter part.

If the OP is genuinely interested in women’s opinions, she’ll stay and read, despite having her arse handed to her when posting at first. I know I did.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves

Just out of interest, I would like to know how transitioned males have been thrown to the wolves? Did we get a good clear example?

I would have said in some instances, transitioned females are thrown to the wolves, but I have seen little evidence of transitioned males being thrown to the wolves.

They actually seem very protected in many ways. Including under the crime/non-crime reporting. And the clear bias that exists on social media platforms that dictate that compelled language that harms females is to be amplified at all times.

I have had my arse handed to me but I can’t apologise for how I feel. Thank you to the people who have taken time to discuss issues with me - even if you strongly disagree.

Feel this one is apt too.

Baggingarea

So are you prepared to discuss and engage?

Maybe with a genuine open mind rather than the censuring one you started the thread with.

@Baggingarea

I have had my arse handed to me but I can’t apologise for how I feel. Thank you to the people who have taken time to discuss issues with me - even if you strongly disagree.

Baggingarea you shouldn't have too apologise for how you feel - but women who feel that the safety and dignity of women and children should never play second fiddle to feelings of a tiny minority of men shouldn't apologize for that either. If you explore your feelings and the motives behind them and the consequences (intended or unintended) that are likely to arise from putting those feelings into action and still feel those feelings then good on you. But many of us started out wanting to be kind and thinking that perhaps there was no harm in letting a few men that had had surgery and we're taking female hormones into the ladies but somehow that ended up with men with no surgery and no hormone treatment and convictions for violence and sexual assault being housed in womens prisons, in cells with women and we saw the harm. We were told again and again that the situations we were raising as objects and problems were scare mongering and that they would never happen and that we were mean and we were cruel and that TW were marginalised and discriminated against but then all the things we were told would never happen happened and we saw women become marginalised in spaces and services that were created for women by women. We asked nicely and were ignored, we said 'no' but we're shouted down, we yelled stop and got called bigots. We tried to impose boundaries and to agree middle ways but no-one wanted listen.

@Baggingarea

I have had my arse handed to me but I can’t apologise for how I feel. Thank you to the people who have taken time to discuss issues with me - even if you strongly disagree.

You are still talking about your feelings.

No-one is asking you to apologise for your feelings. But you are foolish if you let your thoughts and opinions be ruled by your feelings. You would be wise to base your thoughts and opinions on fact and logic.

It is impossible to have a debate with someone whose only answer is to talk about their feelings.

'reason in all things'

Oof @bagging...

You say a lot of things from the top of the fence...

"I'm not saying be kind" yet "there's a club of mean girls"
"It's hateful to ask if Lia looks like a woman" but "males should not be in women's sport"
"Both sides need to find a middle ground" yet "we can't verbalise see any difference between the sides." All the same yet different at the same time...

Wow.

The thing is, that most GC posters here, will have started off with a "be kind", find the compromise, accept differences, mutual respect and understanding viewpoint. And then discovered that there is no willingness to "be kind" from the other side, no boundary that will be tolerated, nothing other than complete acceptance without discussion.

OP's view that transwomen are transwomen and that sporting bodies should set some guidelines around where it may be unfair to compete against natal females would see OP branded as transphobic and screamed at to "repent motherfucker".

Being politely handed your arse on mumsnet is a walk in the park compared to what you would get if you said the above on twitter. Would be interested in seeing the results if you did that, OP.

Being politely handed your arse on mumsnet is a walk in the park compared to what you would get if you said the above on twitter. Would be interested in seeing the results if you did that, OP.

It would indeed but I would recommend the OP take steps to protect her anonymity online before she posts anything mildly GC on Twitter. She might be lucky and just get told to die in a grease fire or she could receive multiple rape and death threats (don't worry it's normal for GC women on social media, only a few have actually been attacked IRL) or she might find someone tries to dox her (much more worrying) and report her to her employer.

Remind me how many GC women behave like that towards TRA's?

Just out of interest, I would like to know how transitioned males have been thrown to the wolves? Did we get a good clear example?

I would have said in some instances, transitioned females are thrown to the wolves, but I have seen little evidence of transitioned males being thrown to the wolves.

I believe the clear example given was Thomas, presumably because the “mean girlz” pointed out the unfairness at length and didn’t hold their punches, as we should only criticize those who made the rules, and not Thomas, despite Thomas being an adult with agency, who could have chosen one of three possible unselfish and honorable pathways:

1. Delaying transition, as Isaac Henig did
2. Continuing to compete in the appropriate class despite transitioning, or
3. Choosing to forgo racing in order to pursue the personal desire to transition.

@Baggingarea

Examples - people posting pictures of Lia Thomas and saying “you can’t tell me this is a woman”. That feels personal and hurtful.

Do you think Thomas is a woman?

@LittleWhingingWoman Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?

There is a thread called "break it down for me." Which would be a good place to go first before accusing the women defending vulnerable women and childrens rights of being mean girls.

We aren't girls.
We are women, and many of us have daughters.

Some of us are rape and domestic abuse survivors. Some of us are even married to other survivors of sexual abuse. We are under no illusions that predatory men will use any and all loopholes to gain access to vulnerable women and children.

I have no interest in pandering to the demands of mens rights activists which is what transactivists are, however much they save flags and say be kind - sending death and rape threats and hounding women out of their job says enough.

I have one priority and that is the safety of my autistic daughter who has already been bullied horrible by a group of transactivist girls at her school. They were telling her she was a boy and showing her extreme anime porn. She was horrified and still is traumatised.

Those were actual mean girls.