Gender argument - caught in the middle

[Baggingarea]

I feel totally caught in the middle in this brave new world of gender ID and I guess I’m just looking for somewhere to vent without getting piled on.

I just think the argument has become so unbelievably divided that there’s no room for mediation any more.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women?

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

I just hate how I can’t feel like I can’t say these things publicly without being branded a terf or a gender traitor. Stifling debate like this is not healthy!

But you're policing my participation right now - if you didn't like my posts, nor my level of participation or what I was participating in, why not scroll past/ignore? If I feel someone is being unfairly treated whether that's on FWR, AIBU or Chat, I would say something and as long as it's not against the rules, then that should be fine and everyone who doesn't like it is free to ignore.

I'm sure there are a thousand issues in my "solution", my ego isn't big enough to believe for one second that it's the solution to everything with absolutely zero faults, I pretty much said as much at the time. Some people thought it was interesting, others didn't, I have no issue with any of that.

Well the obvious middle ground is you allow everyone to say what they like, as long as it's not abusive and grow a thicker skin.

@RoyalCorgi

I don't really understand all this stuff about the need for compromise. Why?

The way I see it is: a group of men want something from us. We don't want to give it to them. And why should we? They have decided they don't want to be men any more. Fine - why is that our problem?

This.

No men in female spaces or sports. Ever. No exceptions.

If you’re not harming or affecting anyone. Go ahead, live as you please, couldn’t give a fig. But stay out of womens spaces. The end.

No men in female spaces or sports. Ever. No exceptions.

If you’re not harming or affecting anyone. Go ahead, live as you please, couldn’t give a fig. But stay out of womens spaces. The end.

Agree, no ifs, buts or maybes no males in female spaces, accessing female only services, awards, sports at all, ever, none. No mangling of language either. Live as you please, if you don't want to access the spaces, services, sports, awards, etc., for your sex then campaign for alternatives to accommodate you that do not impinge on those designated on the basis of sex.

@VestofAbsurdity

No men in female spaces or sports. Ever. No exceptions.

If you’re not harming or affecting anyone. Go ahead, live as you please, couldn’t give a fig. But stay out of womens spaces. The end.

Agree, no ifs, buts or maybes no males in female spaces, accessing female only services, awards, sports at all, ever, none. No mangling of language either. Live as you please, if you don't want to access the spaces, services, sports, awards, etc., for your sex then campaign for alternatives to accommodate you that do not impinge on those designated on the basis of sex.

Yes. Like this clarification a lot.

Forgot about all the bloody men winning awards for females and being featured in Women of the Year spreads etc for a moment in my current rage about sports.

And agree we’re women. Not non-men or menstruators

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

Can you tell me, in law, what legal rights transwomen don't have, that other people with protected characteristics do?

The only one I can think of is that transmen cannot inherit aristocratic titles that go to the eldest male child. But that's sexism, basically, amd suggests that there is one social class in society that has a clear idea about which is the most important sex.

Transwomen face violence - but they're not being beaten up by feminists, or women more generally are they? They're being beaten up by men who are policing the boundaries of sex - transwomen seem to be attacked mostly because they are transgressing a particularly violent idea of being a man.

And transwomen HAVE attacked & raped women - Karen White et al. We bring up these cases because they are happening.

Black men face hideous discrimination. That does not give them the right to be housed in a female prison. It's a red herring to talk about discrimination trans people face when we're talking about women's rights.

[quote Baggingarea]@PrelateChuckles I’ve been ignoring you because you are quite antagonistic and quite quick to twist my words. You are also wildly leaping to conclusions about me which is tiresome.

I believe if someone wants to change gender they should be respected while they transition. I also believe all genders should have access to the privacy they want. In terms of competing with sport I think professional bodies need to sort this out. I’m not sure how else I can say this![/quote]
What about all sexes? rather a lot of us dont believe in gender, its a social construct used to railroad women into oppressive gender roles invented by men.

and futhermore that social construct varies across different cultures, so how are sporting bodies to manage that when sport is worldwide, without being accused of cultural imperialism.

You are right Velvet. When Samoa doesn’t allow their transitioned males participate in female sport and are held up as cultural examples of a ‘third gender and two spirit’ culture constantly, that entire argument starts to unravel.

Samoa only allows males to participate in male categories. So despite their history being appropriated by people attempting the ‘cultural acceptance’ angle, that island nation puts themselves at a future disadvantage because of the new cultural being forced on them by the west.

Really, it is all very much build on falsehoods and forced teaming and false acceptance.

Sorry for the typos.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Black men face hideous discrimination. That does not give them the right to be housed in a female prison. It's a red herring to talk about discrimination trans people face when we're talking about women's rights.

If we were going to use black men as a example then we would have to be campaigning that they are white men, with a suitable mantra to shout at those who point out they are black.

"black men are men" yes but they face different things to white men because of their co...."BLACK MEN ARE MEN" yes but data shows they tend to get stopped and searc..."BIGOT!"

thats the only way it would be comparable.

*If we were going to use black men as a example then we would have to be campaigning that they are white men, with a suitable mantra to shout at those who point out they are black.

"black men are men" yes but they face different things to white men because of their co...."BLACK MEN ARE MEN" yes but data shows they tend to get stopped and searc..."BIGOT!"

thats the only way it would be comparable.*

I'm not really with you here. The issue would actually be white men trying to identify as black and then take protections due to black men. It's not black men identifying as a more powerful group that's the issue.

Anyway my point was that lots of groups face discrimination. We don't collapse categories to have a single group of 'people who face discrimination' and lumping transwomen in with women is the same collapsing. Yes transwomen face discrimination. So do women. It's not the same discrimination.

I think there's confusion between being respectful and saying things nicely.
They are not mutually exclusive but they are also not the same.
No one here has to be nice to you or anyone else. They do have to listen to your points and respond or pick them apart or propose new items without calling you names.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

*If we were going to use black men as a example then we would have to be campaigning that they are white men, with a suitable mantra to shout at those who point out they are black.

"black men are men" yes but they face different things to white men because of their co...."BLACK MEN ARE MEN" yes but data shows they tend to get stopped and searc..."BIGOT!"

thats the only way it would be comparable.*

I'm not really with you here. The issue would actually be white men trying to identify as black and then take protections due to black men. It's not black men identifying as a more powerful group that's the issue.

Anyway my point was that lots of groups face discrimination. We don't collapse categories to have a single group of 'people who face discrimination' and lumping transwomen in with women is the same collapsing. Yes transwomen face discrimination. So do women. It's not the same discrimination.

depends how you look at it, clearly your looking at it from the standpoint of men muscling in on women.

but they would be looking at it from the standpoint of a tiny minority of vulnerable people trying to get the rights and protection of a larger group.

thats the point, we see them as men choosing to present themselves as women, weather thats due to mental health, opportunism (sports) or predatory.

they dont see them as that, they honestly think they are women, they think people can be whatever they believe and reality doesnt matter.

TW are not women though and if the trans activists wanted to change the way we categorise men and women they need to present a definition of woman which includes TW but excludes men. They have failed to do so. They do experience discrimination but not for the same reasons that women do so it makes no more sense to collapse the categories of 'TW and women' than is does to collapse the categories of 'black mean and women'. I have nothing in common with a TW that I don't have in common with a non-trans man.

'is it realistic to think we can ever get our rights back?

Yes, but not until the (so far) mythical number of women and children are harmed. As we have asked (forever it seems) how many women and children need to be harmed before safeguarding is brought back?

I may have been roughly in the middle about all this in 2010 when I first started sensing that this current storm was likely in the future. I was concerned, even then, about how we could continue fighting against sex-based oppression if the group 'women' would consist of both biologically female people and of trans women.

At that time I NEVER imagined that it would be the biologically female people in that grouping who would get their woman-status challenged, not trans women!

I never thought that the biological sex 'women' would be replaced by something called 'cisgender', and that this new identity would be forced on most of us, to replace our defining ourselves as women because we are biologically female and adult.

And I never imagined that what used to be called 'women' might in 2022 be called 'menstruators', 'bleeders', individuals with a cervix, uterus-havers, vagina-owners and so on, or that the female body would become a gender-neutral one (people menstruating, giving birth, getting pregnant), though not in porn or prostitution or surrogacy.

The changes in the last decade are really all because nobody protected the original category 'women' but prioritised those who wished to enter it and those who wished to leave it, though only as identities.

So what more should we give away in some new compromise? I also don't think that trans activists would go along with any compromises. They want validation.

If we were going to use black men as a example then we would have to be campaigning that they are white men, with a suitable mantra to shout at those who point out they are black.

"black men are men" yes but they face different things to white men because of their co...."BLACK MEN ARE MEN" yes but data shows they tend to get stopped and searc..."BIGOT!"

thats the only way it would be comparable.

Hi, no you have got the wrong end of the stick. It would be white men pretending they are black to gain any advantages they can [bursaries as one example, specifically to assist under-represented groups] whilst ALSO getting the benefits of being white.

Trans women [aka Men] do not request that their pay is lowered if they identify as a woman, to the same rate as average women in their organisation. They will have the advantages of being men, take the advantages of visiting which ever toilet they desire and any other 'benefits' that women may be provided with, and then scream that they are Trans if anyone questions them.

It is a farce and who wins here? Not women by a long shot.

I have been thinking of this over the weekend.

I still can’t get my head around people saying on one hand ‘it is not an athlete’s ‘fault’ for participating by the rules.’

While on another thread, an activist poster disappeared without answering my question which was:

When a mixed sex toilet provision is made and a clearly signed ‘female single sex toilet’ is available for the females, whether a transitioned male would disrespect the needs of those females by entering into that toilet.?

And if not, what would we be policing if all toilets are configured in such a way?

So. Do transitioned males have their own agency to make decisions that respect female’s needs?

Or are they going to use the poor legislation and guided to their advantage and their responsibility for making disrespectful decisions handwaved away because ‘they were doing what they are allowed to do’? So excused for disrespectful behaviour, because??? Why???