Gender argument - caught in the middle

[Baggingarea]

I feel totally caught in the middle in this brave new world of gender ID and I guess I’m just looking for somewhere to vent without getting piled on.

I just think the argument has become so unbelievably divided that there’s no room for mediation any more.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women?

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

I just hate how I can’t feel like I can’t say these things publicly without being branded a terf or a gender traitor. Stifling debate like this is not healthy!

If I, as an adult human female entered the under 13 swimming and won, would you think that was fair? If I told you I identified as a 12 year old girl, and so I was entitled to win because I feel 12, would you think that fair? Because that's basically what is happening with Lia Thomas in the women's racing.

@Baggingarea

No I mean trans women are. Yes it’s unfair on biological women but at the end of the day who is letting them compete? They shouldn’t be the subject of all this hats because sports officials have buried their heads in the sand.

Ultimately? The transitioned males 'allow' themselves to compete.

If they actually cared about women, they would not be competing even if they were allowed to under some sporting organisations rules.

Ask yourself, are these males incapable of self awareness? Do YOU do things that you are allowed to do but you realise is actually causing others harm by you doing it?

@Baggingarea

And I’m not saying Lia Thomas isn’t taking advantage of a loophole but we don’t know either way. And what other choice does she have?

He has the option of competing against the men or pushing for a mixed sex/open event, but he chose to compete against women and after he had beaten them convincingly smugly stated that he was just cruising. Poor old L Thomas?? I don't think so.

@Baggingarea

And I do feel a lot of what I’m saying in good faith is being twisted a little with no benefit of the doubt. It’s immediately made me feel a bit defensive, just being totally honest here.

It’s because you’re come across like you’re assuming that you are wiser than everyone else here, that you are kinder than everyone else, you have the forethought to consider things others here have failed to… but it’s just not true unfortunately.

I know that it must prickle your sensitivities, but if you genuinely think that someone saying lia doesn’t look like a woman is on par with death/rape threats (or actually rape), if you genuinely believe the example you gave is ‘both sides being as bad as each other’ then you must expect people to disagree with you, in the strongest terms.

Womens safety comes before men feelings. Every time.

You will not find a middle ground.
You either believe trans women are women and that’s that, or you don’t.

It's like males using women's spaces. They don't have to. They do it because they don't respect women's rights to privacy and dignity, or women's feelings or boundaries.

I feel it’s often inexperience which leads to holding anti GC views. An awareness of womens struggles can help shed light on the need for single sex spaces (sexual harassment, rape, womens prisons, female health issues, refuges, the pay gap, the power gap, caring responsibilities, menopause, birthing, pregnancy, periods, sports and so on)

@Baggingarea

You're not being attacked. People are disagreeing with you. Some people think you might be trying to stir up trouble.

So on the one hand I’m apparently telling everyone to bekind and silencing them but on the other I’m also expected to shut up and not have my own view. Does anyone else see the irony?

I don't think you're being silenced. You're being challenged by people with a different view.

‘I’m saying that bullying individuals online is very mean girls.’

It’s not, when there is an individual saying they are X when they are not. I don’t “bully” someone when I say they are wrong. I’m just saying they’re wrong.

Examples - people posting pictures of Lia Thomas and saying “you can’t tell me this is a woman”. That feels personal and hurtful

Lia Thomas is not a woman. If someone posted a picture of a white person claimjng to be black and said 'You can't tell me this is a black person', or a picture of a man claiming to be a little girl, saying 'You can't tellme this is a little girl', would you accuse them of being 'personal and hurtful'? If not, whatthe difference?

And how on earth can you compare rape and death threats with someone simply stating a biological fact? Please show us some examples of GC women hurling vile, offensive abuse at transwomen and threatening them with rape and murder.

There's no GC equivalent to this -

There is, it's about ten tweets someone has collected, some very unpleasant, none of lurid threats of rape, torture or death. Compared to the thousands upon thousands of sexual violence threats and murder ideation towards women with even mildly GC views (yes even yours, OP) from trans activists and their mostly male allies it's really quite risible.

@Baggingarea

And I’m not saying Lia Thomas isn’t taking advantage of a loophole but we don’t know either way. And what other choice does she have?

compete with all the other males.

Why do you insist that these males are blameless here? They can easily read the science, and they really can see that results for their own eyes?

By the way. I saw a male athlete yesterday basically tell a female champion athlete that she was mean because she used the term 'male' to discuss Emily Bridges inclusion in female cycling!

Did you know that Bridges won a MALE race last month because their transition was not quite up to the required time?

Do you understand you are here tone policing and telling women that they are 'mean girls' when male athletes are saying the same type of thing to well informed female champions? Just to silence and shame them?

Thankfully Bridges is out.

@titchy

The middle ground is third spaces. No GC person has any objection to this. TRAs do object to this.

Absolutely. Women are adult female humans. We want our spaces. We want only other adult female humans to compete with us for jobs,in sport, to be on panels that deal with issues that relate only to adult ,female humans. We don't have a problem with transwomen. We do have an absolutely massive problem with transwomen deciding they can be women. Especially if that means they wander around our changing rooms with their very male penis. Or take team places away from actual women because they have decided that they fancy winning at a sport they were crap at as a man. Of course we want to defend our rights. My mother grew up in the forties and fifties ,when being a woman was pretty crap. I became a teenager in the 70s. It wasn't great for women then either. Things had greatly improved for women. Now we have people , who used to be able to treat us as second class citizens, because they were men, deciding that they will be women ,just like us, and treat us like crap from this side too. No thank you. NO.

Now we have people , who used to be able to treat us as second class citizens, because they were men, deciding that they will be women ,just like us, and treat us like crap from this side too.

And then all their "male feminist" friends join in too, bullying those who object, because it's good to have a class of woman they can openly hate and they don't have to pretend to respect what we say, as they do with other women.

When will you learn we are not stupid?

So on the one hand I’m apparently telling everyone to bekind and silencing them but on the other I’m also expected to shut up and not have my own view. Does anyone else see the irony?

You are very welcome to have your own view.

However, using a derogatory term like terf and implying you don't want to associated as a 'term' was a pretty crap thing to do. Then telling us that pointing out to trans activists, criminals who have raped or assaulted who are trans and that safeguarding is still needed to be based on sex is 'mean girl' behaviour is also not going to win you many mates here.

Because we have seen very recently that there is simply no way to discuss these things in any way that is not seen as hateful and offensive. Read the Maya Forstater tribunal tweets. Read Nancy Kelly telling others to stop 'weaponising' their trauma while hypocritically 'weaponising' their trauma.

Basically, your opening post was accusatory in nature. Own it and maybe we can move on.

Do you actually have a position you wanted to discuss, OP, or did you want this thread to be about 'who's meanest?'?

Well put, Helleofabore

@Baggingarea

Examples - people posting pictures of Lia Thomas and saying “you can’t tell me this is a woman”. That feels personal and hurtful.

I can 100% confirm that Lia Thomas knows he is a man.

It won't break him for us to point this out.

Why has he got you coming to his rescue?

Ah, I haven't seen that collection of 10 tweets before.

I've never got to the bottom of the terfisaslur page. As you say, there are thousands and thousands of examples.

And there seem so little consequences for that behaviour. Did the student who was posting gun threats (whose University initially backed his behaviour) ever receive any sort of disciplinary action? Twitter seems to have defended a tweet saying that the person was going to kick a woman down a set of stairs to see how often they bounced. JKR has received enough rape and death threats to 'paper her house'. These sort of threats seem to be normalised and acceptable because the (mostly) women expressing them have 'the wrong views'.

@Waitwhat23

Ah, I haven't seen that collection of 10 tweets before.

I've never got to the bottom of the terfisaslur page. As you say, there are thousands and thousands of examples.

And there seem so little consequences for that behaviour. Did the student who was posting gun threats (whose University initially backed his behaviour) ever receive any sort of disciplinary action? Twitter seems to have defended a tweet saying that the person was going to kick a woman down a set of stairs to see how often they bounced. JKR has received enough rape and death threats to 'paper her house'. These sort of threats seem to be normalised and acceptable because the (mostly) women expressing them have 'the wrong views'.

But we are the mean ones…. Apparently.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point I am a woman, not a cis woman, just a woman with a vagina. I'm not looking for any criminals to prove a point?

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this. If males didn't want to pretend they are female this wouldn't be an issue.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women? We did have - males and females - males pretending to be females changed this.

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too. So why do I have to suffer?

Baggingarea

I can't presume to know whether the people you have encountered are bullies but if you had been following developments in this "no debate" for a few years you would understand why women are absolutely furious. We have been subjected to threats, abuse and physical violence for having the temerity to campaign for our rights and for refusing to be the human shields for males who are vulnerable to abuse and violence from other males. We do not think it's OK to increase the risks to ourselves to protect vulnerable males.

I found this board about 5 years ago, I know transwomen so I was initially confused about why there was suddenly so much tension between the two groups and I thought maybe the women here could express themselves more tactfully and in a less inflammatory way. I did not say so at the time but I lurked and I learned. I understand now that there is no compromising with the trans lobby, it's total capitulation at our expense or nothing. There are no words we can use which will appease them unless it's the ones they dictate to us which means sacrificing the words we use to describe female experiences in a meaningful way. I have been shocked at the violence and abuse women have been subjected to by people who have faced almost no consequences for their actions. I am now of the opinion that clear and unambiguous language is essential in preventing womens rights being trampled all over, I will not apologise for using correct terms to indicate someone sex.

In short I am raging and now as terfy as fuck and I'm not even a little bit sorry.

@Triotriotrio

If I, as an adult human female entered the under 13 swimming and won, would you think that was fair? If I told you I identified as a 12 year old girl, and so I was entitled to win because I feel 12, would you think that fair? Because that's basically what is happening with Lia Thomas in the women's racing.

My exhusband had a huge mid life crisis at 32. He had done some motorbike racing as a teen but had been very average at it and had never won anything. He decided to take it up again in his 30s as part of his reinvention as a sexy single man. There was no upper age limit so he was technically able to compete even though everyone else was around 17. A man who had never won a race was suddenly able to win everytime. He thought it was brilliant. He was physically bigger, far more experienced and able to throw the bikes around because of his superior strength . Its just as sad as men deciding to say they are women and competing against women half their size. It looks every bit as ridiculous. He couldn't see how silly he looked. Presumably Lia Thomas thinks that an entire male in a womens swimming costume is completely believable. The fact that he has huge hands and feet to push him through the water far faster than any woman is neither here nor there....to him.

I've been waiting to use this meme for a while. Seems like it fits.