Gender argument - caught in the middle

[Baggingarea]

I feel totally caught in the middle in this brave new world of gender ID and I guess I’m just looking for somewhere to vent without getting piled on.

I just think the argument has become so unbelievably divided that there’s no room for mediation any more.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women?

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

I just hate how I can’t feel like I can’t say these things publicly without being branded a terf or a gender traitor. Stifling debate like this is not healthy!

I'll also mention for sheer light relief, you won't have seen a female defending her rights by galloping into the face of a trans person while aggressively shouting "witch! witch! witch!" or shaking a tambourine at them while squeaking "repent motherfucker!"

I can find the clips of this happening to females though. And plenty of others.

Are we worried about hurtful, cruel, scary in these contexts at all?

Your disagreement and foe eyed disbelief does not mean people are attacking you

But L Thomas has happily put L Thomas out there. And L Thomas is not a woman. And nobody should be telling anybody that L Thomas is a woman, because it is not true.

That is personal to L Thomas, and also to a lot of other people, because truth is personal to people.

@Baggingarea

No I mean trans women are. Yes it’s unfair on biological women but at the end of the day who is letting them compete? They shouldn’t be the subject of all this hats because sports officials have buried their heads in the sand.

'Letting them compete'???

As if they're not competent adults with agency of their own.

Every transwoman is a biological man, who is entitled to compete in men's sports, and has chosen not to.

Yes, sports officials and governing bodies have behaved appallingly. But they've done so in the face of pressure from trans rights groups and individual trans athletes. Who could have competed in their own sex category.

Lets move away from the idea that transwomen are the innocent victims of their decision making.

It’s madness not to acknowledge that (and probably something that will get me labelled a terf).

Well, yes. It will.

Doe eyed disbelief ffs

I need sleep

@Baggingarea

Examples - people posting pictures of Lia Thomas and saying “you can’t tell me this is a woman”. That feels personal and hurtful.

It’s interesting this is the the kind of thing you consider ‘deeply cruel’ and on par with death/rape threats.

I’m not having a go/being sarcastic.

People genuinely do see rape and death threats to woman as in a par with being saying a truth but in an unkind way.

Female socialisation and #bekind is no joke

@Baggingarea

Sorry I meant somebody born male. I just don’t get why saying let’s not be horrendous to an individual is oppressing womens legal rights? There should be a middle ground where everyone (or at least most of us) are happy. Sorry if I’m naive.

There is a middle ground. Third spaces.

"On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point."

Ahahahahahahahahahahhaahahaha [intake of breathe] ahahahaahahahahahahaahahaha! Good one op

@Baggingarea

Examples - people posting pictures of Lia Thomas and saying “you can’t tell me this is a woman”. That feels personal and hurtful.

Yes that could well be hurtful to Lia Thomas but I am afraid the truth will out 'Emperor's New Clothes' and all that. Perhaps Lia's family and friends could have pointed out the reality of what they are doing before this point to save them this distress.

I agree with you that the sporting bodies are at fault and you could say the Government is at fault for not giving proper guidance to the sports authorities.
I would say sport could easily be viewed to fall under the existing Equalities Act which protects women's sex-based rights which as we all know has been wilfully misrepresented by Stonewall etc.
Instead women are having to crowdfund legal cases to get the Law correctly interpreted.

I give up. “Doe eyes disbelief” is so offensive. It’s like saying anyone who disagrees with you is part of the bekind crew or has been manipulated to believe certain things. I’m pretty secure in my own opinions - do not patronise me.

Why on earth would you feel sorry for transwomen in women's sport? They could have just carried on playing in men's teams and fought against any changes that didn't allow them to do so.

And I’m not saying Lia Thomas isn’t taking advantage of a loophole but we don’t know either way. And what other choice does she have?

but also who cares about women and also trans women. Both play second fiddle I suppose.

Everyone cares about male people, of whichever gender identity. Women are female, so no one gives a shit. Males with identities in no way play "second fiddle"

@Baggingarea you are the one who posted telling women to be kind and nice. Why are you so upset when they say no?

Examples - people posting pictures of Lia Thomas and saying “you can’t tell me this is a woman”. That feels personal and hurtful.
But, but that's not being personal and hurtful, that's stating a FACT. Lia Thomas is not a woman. They went through puberty and developed male muscles, a larger heart, larger lung capacity and longer reach. Lia Thomas is a man in a racer back women's swimsuit.

TRA. Move on.

@Baggingarea

Lol ok this thread has confirmed my suspicions that you can’t have a reasonable conversation on this topic without being attacked. I’ll just go back to saying nothing!

You're not being attacked. People are disagreeing with you. Some people think you might be trying to stir up trouble.

@Crcohetmonster no I didn’t. I asked why can’t you see both sides of the argument without getting abused?

Lia can swim with the men because lia is a man

Lis has chosen to invade woman’s sport

Swimming may be arseholes for allowing it but no one is forcing lia to swim are they

I have 0 sympathy

You can't have transwomen being the first woman CEO/frontline soldier/woman on the moon/ whatever either.

Some of Lia Thomas' female teammates allege that Lia exposes Lia's genitals to them. They've complained but no one gives a fuck. Who has the power there, OP?

If this is the OP’s definition of being attacked, no wonder they think stating biological facts is cruel. And if they think this is mean girls, they’ve never dealt with teenage girls.

You're not being attacked. People are disagreeing with you. Some people think you might be trying to stir up trouble.

So on the one hand I’m apparently telling everyone to bekind and silencing them but on the other I’m also expected to shut up and not have my own view. Does anyone else see the irony?

I believe trans women are trans women.

I believe transwomen are transwomen too which means they are adult human males or they would be women which are adult human females. There are only two sexes and you cannot be a transwoman unless you are male.

Examples - people posting pictures of Lia Thomas and saying “you can’t tell me this is a woman”. That feels personal and hurtful.

How is that personal or hurtful. LT is a transwoman competing, with a significant advantage, against women. How are women supposed to highlight the unfairness of that without mentioning that LT is male? That LT is male is the reason it's unfair. Should the women who have trained for years give up their sporting ambitions so that they don't cause offence?

Are you sure you don't think women should just STFU?