Gender argument - caught in the middle

[Baggingarea]

I feel totally caught in the middle in this brave new world of gender ID and I guess I’m just looking for somewhere to vent without getting piled on.

I just think the argument has become so unbelievably divided that there’s no room for mediation any more.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women?

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

I just hate how I can’t feel like I can’t say these things publicly without being branded a terf or a gender traitor. Stifling debate like this is not healthy!

[quote Baggingarea]@Crcohetmonster no I didn’t. I asked why can’t you see both sides of the argument without getting abused?[/quote]
I can see both sides. I see the rape threats, death threats, violence and it’s all coming from one side of this issue. Clue, it’s not the GC side. Maybe have a word with the other side.

Yeah, I can't take the 'two sides are as bad as each other' thing seriously.

There's no GC equivalent to this - www.terfisaslur.com

The death and rape threats are coming from only one side.

[quote Baggingarea]@Crcohetmonster no I didn’t. I asked why can’t you see both sides of the argument without getting abused?[/quote]
I can understand you getting frustrated that you’re not having the discussion you felt you wanted, but I’m seeing disagreement, not abuse.

Who is being abusive?

Doe eyed innocence is sarcastic, but I certainly wouldn’t say it was abusive??

I'm not on a "side". I consider myself and many feminists on here to be in the middle - respectful of trans people (proven criminals excepted, as with nearly anyone regardless of their characteristics) , happy for 3rd spaces for trans ppl, and actively asking for better evidenced treatment and safeguarding for children who may be trans.

If you're getting your info from Twitter you're doing it wrong.

I think you could have been a tad more pleasant, with less throwing around misogynistic slurs we all get called here and you are saying you shouldn't be called, when wanting to have this "take the heat out of the debate" conversation with GC feminists, really.

I didn’t call it abusive, I called it patronising. Abusive was in ref to the op.

Of course you can have your own view. But people not agreeing with your view doesn't mean you are 'being attacked.

Have you posted the like / been on any trans forums saying where is the middle ground?

If so, which ones?
If not, why not?

@PrelateChuckles but most people do only hear about this conversation on twitter. I’m not sure that invalidates it but I do see your point.

So on the one hand I’m apparently telling everyone to be kind and silencing them but on the other I’m also expected to shut up and not have my own view. Does anyone else see the irony?*

Who's telling you to shut up? This is a discussion forum and people (mainly women) are disagreeing with you.

I’m also expected to shut up and not have my own view. Does anyone else see the irony?

Have you been told to shut up or have we simply pointed out the flaws in your arguements? Posting on MN isn't compulsory, you voluntarily created a thread to tell us your views and we're telling you we disagree with you and suggesting you may need to do a little more research and thinking before informing us we're all mean girls.

Next we’ll have committed “literal violence” by not agreeing to all be nice and just handing our rights over.

@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars No because I’m not a member of any trans forums.

Is there a particular aspect of GC feminism you disagree with, op? By which i mean it's an aspect that GC feminists would agree is an accurate representation of their position.

If so, please set it out clearly. Otherwise it looks like you're saying "some people are mean so anyone that says anything similar to their position is factually incorrect", which obviously wouldn't be a very intelligent argument.

It’s not mean to prioritise safeguarding of women and children. It’s irrelevant how males identify, in womens spaces they pose the same serious risk.

@Baggingarea

And I’m not saying Lia Thomas isn’t taking advantage of a loophole but we don’t know either way. And what other choice does she have?

Lia has many choices. Lia could:

1. Use the name, and dress as a woman.
2. Recognise that being biologically male carries performance advantages, so continue to swim in the men's team, albeit under the name 'Lia' and in a female suit.
3. Get changed in a neutral space.

Instead Lia chooses to compete with the women, win races due to biological advantage, and change in the women's changing room which has at times meant other team members have seen Lia's genitals.

The ones who really have no choice here are the women who can either quit swimming (which may mean losing their college place) or suck up taking their clothes off around an anatomical male.

Lia has choices.

And if we’re being mean girls, baggsy Regina George

I think two things that tipped me over the neutral line were the transwoman running a woman’s refuge and a transwoman ( part time ) winning an award for being a business woman of the year .

Oh plus biological men being asked if they are pregnant .

It’s bonkers , totally bonkers

[quote Baggingarea]@PrelateChuckles but most people do only hear about this conversation on twitter. I’m not sure that invalidates it but I do see your point.[/quote]
Why do you think that?
You're deliberately choosing to be misinformed if you are only reading Twitter.

Regardless of identity a male doesn’t stop being male and therefore a risk

selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

What is that point? Male pattern violence doesn't change just because you say you are a woman.

@FOJN ok sorry if it came across that way. I really meant to say the people I have seen on twitter (and know I’m real life too actually) are coming off a little bit bullying. I will accept this does not apply to everyone - it is just my experience of it.

And I do feel a lot of what I’m saying in good faith is being twisted a little with no benefit of the doubt. It’s immediately made me feel a bit defensive, just being totally honest here.

And Lia Thomas could 'broaden the bandwidth of maleness' by competing as a transwoman within their own sex class. Why aren't men being asked to be kind and expand their boundaries in the same way that women are being told to?

You came here and were hostile and dismissive to most of the women who are posting here and are regular posters on this board. I'm not sure why you're so unaware of how you're coming across yourself.