AIBU? Trans friend....

[OrchardBlack]

Have NC'd for this.

So a close friend of mine (female) and I booked tickets to an event in our town some time ago, due to take place in a few weeks. Both excited and looking forward to it , all good.

A few weeks ago she asks me if a male , straight friend of hers can also join, no problem, the more the merrier. I've never met him.

Except it now transpires that he has (quite suddenly from what I gather) said he is transitioning to be a woman and will use this night as his 'coming out'. He has messaged my friend saying that he's going to wear a sun dress and heels and he's nervous but excited too. He has also said we are to refer to him by his female name. My friend says he is currently in a relationship with a woman.

Now my friend is saying she is finding this all a lot to take on so suddenly as she's known him for many years as his male name and never even seen him with makeup on. I asked if he would be using the women's toilets on our night out, she doesn't know but I can only assume he is.

I feel very uncomfortable, as does my friend. I am fully supportive of people choosing to live how they wish, I just can't help feeling he's high-jacked our night. He isn't out as trans to any of his family etc so he has said no photos of the night etc. I'm also massively concerned that he is clearly still attracted to women and what this means for the safe spaces such as toilets etc.

She says she doesn't feel like she can talk to him about it and is concocting a plan to say she has covid and giving me my money back so we don't go. I'm dissapointed as I was looking forward to it.

AIBU to be deflated and a bit annoyed??

Yes, this is totally hijacking your plans to use you and the night as a vehicle to service this person's purpose, and yes, it may well put you in some very awkward positions.

The whole reason the EHRC are continually asked to provide guidance around single sex spaces is that it is not working because to include male people into facilities that were created for female people excludes some female people. It's not inclusive at all. The only argument to this is that those female people don't matter. But many female people feel very uncomfortable enabling and supporting a male to do something which may negatively affect other females in that space, which those female people may be afraid to do anything but leave and have access to nothing at all so a male person can take their choice of which of all their available facilities they most wish to be in at the moment that suits them. The single sex exclusions should have enabled some balance with this, but have not been applied as they should have been because lobbyists and activists have tried to prevent them being used and repeatedly told everyone that they can't be used.

As a result, it hasn't worked for anyone. These issues aren't going away. And since the answer the lobbyists and activists want is that difficult females who can't put male people's needs and freedoms above their own just give up their claim to spaces and resources and services and accept having nothing? No, that one isn't going anywhere good or permanent either is it? Because which women are going to vote for that kind of male supremacist society in which some females get nothing so that some males can have choice of everything, and are embedded in law as more important and entitled? Also makes a total nonsense of trying to claim the whole reason for this is that sex isn't binary, because who wins and who loses is very very binary (and obviously sexist) indeed.

Anyway. The point is: this person needs to set up their own night for this big first. They need to invite people to join them specifically to support their night, their needs, because that is what the night will in essence be about. It is a bit thoughtless and entitled to want to do this using someone else's night out, and potentially to refocus them from being there to just relax and have fun themselves, to being there as support and back up. This runs the risk of not working well for anyone.

At the end of the day, most of society will look at who is the most damaged by the situation at hand.

Is it likely to be this male person in a sundress and heels, or the women whose privacy and dignity is violated and don't feel secure in female only spaces, do you think?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

At the end of the day, most of society will look at who is the most damaged by the situation at hand.

Is it likely to be this male person in a sundress and heels, or the women whose privacy and dignity is violated and don't feel secure in female only spaces, do you think?

Always has to be framed into who gets the prize and who gets to shut up, put up and have nothing at all.

Interesting that.

How about 'lets find answers that work equally for everyone?'

We are not talking about a man, we are talking about a transwoman. If you can’t see the difference then it is a little bit sad.

Can you explain how a transwoman is just like a woman and not at all like a man?

@BiscuitLover3678

What a depressing thread.

For whoever it was replied to me above: no, I don’t like the idea of men coming into the ladies toilets. But you know what? Doesn’t really matter does it. We are not talking about a man, we are talking about a transwoman. If you can’t see the difference then it is a little bit sad.

The last transwoman I spoke to was the gentlest person I’ve ever met. She actually avoids public toilets or goes in the disabled as doesn’t want to make biological woman feel uncomfortable. This is what most transwomen are like. A lot of people on this thread really need to get a grip. I find it quite sad really as there used to be a sensible middle ground where you could be gender critical and suggest some things properly. Now it’s just a mess full of ridiculous comments and awful transphobia. You are never going to win with these attitudes. You’re just going to constantly distance yourself and it’ll only get worse.

@BiscuitLover3678 What is truly sad is you honestly think there is a difference between a male and transwoman. That take a lot of science-denial, a lot of biological denial, a lot of anatomical denial.

A transwoman is a male bodied person with a penis and testicles and male DNA and chromosomes.

A male is a male bodied person with a penis and testicles and male DNA and chromosomes.

Transwomen are MEN. M.E.N.

They have a PENIS!

They are MEN.

How far indoctrinated and brainwashed do you need to be to see a penis and testicles and not see a man!? You're in denial of science, of biology, of biochemistry, of everything.

The last transwoman I spoke to was the gentlest person I’ve ever met. She actually avoids public toilets or goes in the disabled as doesn’t want to make biological woman feel uncomfortable. This is what most transwomen are like.

Then you've proved our point, and you are too far down the rabbit hole and busy twisting with mental gymnastics to see it. The transwomen you know, KNOW THEY ARE MEN. Thats why they don't go into the women's toilets. They KNOW they are not women. So why are you contradicting yourself by saying there is a difference between men and transwomen, when even the transwomen you know acknowledge there is no different? Rather confused aren't you, to the extent you contradict yourself in the same post, and prove our point. Have a long hard look at your post and really think about the mental gymnastics you used, in order to simply prove our point that there is no difference between men and transwomen! You said it yourself with your friends example!

@Cheetocat

Where have you been living in the last century?
Some men get a massive kick out of perving on women in the toilets.
I could mention names but that would get my post deleted, come on over to fwr and have your mind blown

Start here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

@BiscuitLover3678

Ok *@justaftb* we can have different opinions about this. At the end of the day, most of society will look at who is the most damaged by the situation at hand. It’s not generally black and white.

At the end of the day, most of society will look at who is the most damaged by the situation at hand.

And it's always, always the women who are most damaged. It really is that black and white. Women including Hijabi wearing Muslim women are the oppressed sex. A transwoman has male privilege and is the aggressor, violator and intruder.

@Joinedforthis22

Seriously this is just one side screaming transgender and the other screaming homophobe and those of us in the middle being labeled either for asking questions in an attempt to understand this new and baffling world.

I understand it's an emotive issue but educating is the way not reporting and shouting down who you view as your opponent.

Enjoy the bun fight you've created OP, I think that was potentially what you wanted.

I'm so with you on this.

On one hand, I'm a "TERF" for wanting to protect women's sport and safe spaces. On the other hand, I'm a TRA, an idiot and a mysoginist apologist for not insisting on calling trans women MALE NARCISSIST PERVERTS in all caps.

People were only called homophobic as they tried to imply that lesbians were on the same level as men in terms of who should access women's spaces. Women's spaces aren't "straight women spaces". They are however women's spaces, ie not for men.

This doesn't even make it to the Trans women/ and toilet issue for me.

The suggestion that a man I don't know wants to make my night out with a friend now all about them going public in women's clothes for the first time would just make me state. No.

It screams of him getting some kicks from this public airing of a fetish, with you as a side show to facilitate and cheer the whole thing.

The whole night out would now be about them and this amazing 'experience' they're having.

I wouldn't be a part of it.

To those who say Trans women aren't men...

Is this man a trans women yet? At what point does he become a trans women and stop being a man?
The night he goes out with a dress on? Or before that?

Or just when he says so? Does just saying it make it happen and then he stops being a man?

it is a little bit sad.

I find the absolute lack of care and kindness and consideration to females more than a little bit sad, personally.

In your shoes I'd ask my friend to tell him that I'm no longer available as the emotional support animal for men going through some major event in their lives. Whether it's some guy crying over a divorce or wearing a frock for the first time, it's all the same to me and my welcome is revoked.

Going back to the OP (because not about to wade through 10 pages), of course you'd be annoyed. I'd be very annoyed with him and also very annoyed with my friend for allowing it to happen. She could have told him that was too much of a change to the dynamics of the planned outing, wasn't fair to her other friend (you), wished him well, and left it at that.

No, I wouldn't be "happy for him" trying to make the event all about him, especially if I didn't really even know him. He's only a friend of a friend, and he's making awkward demands about no photos, etc.? Taking over someone else's outing is quite rude, no matter what the circumstances.

@MalagaNights

This doesn't even make it to the Trans women/ and toilet issue for me.

The suggestion that a man I don't know wants to make my night out with a friend now all about them going public in women's clothes for the first time would just make me state. No.

It screams of him getting some kicks from this public airing of a fetish, with you as a side show to facilitate and cheer the whole thing.

The whole night out would now be about them and this amazing 'experience' they're having.

I wouldn't be a part of it.

This is exactly what I thought. This person has a fetish that he wants to explore in public and he wants the OP and her friend to indulge it and tell them how fabulous/stunning/brave they are. I'd say no!

@Quaggars

He has hijacked your night and demanding that you don't take photos is very controlling of him

Surely that's just the same as anyone going on a night out and not wanting their photo taken though?
I can't see where they've said no photos of the night to be taken at all or of anyone?
Loads of people don't want their photo taken on a night out.

How it the OP's friend to manage a conversation with that male's partner or a mutual friend if asked why there are only photos of her and OP? If she is a known uploader of "bestie on nightout" or just asked whats her answer?

Which is better a social lie or she comes out with the truthful answer?

The night as designed by the male creates a social obligation on the OP and OP's friend to lie.

The OP may have mutual friends was she introduced to Jack or Jill.

The last transwoman I spoke to was the gentlest person I’ve ever met. She actually avoids public toilets or goes in the disabled as doesn’t want to make biological woman feel uncomfortable. This is what most transwomen are like

What's sad is that genuine and decent people like your friend have had to watch the shit storm that has been created by this recent ideology that says any man is literally a woman if he says he is and must be treated as one in all and every circumstance, and that any woman who disagrees is motivated by nothing but hate and bigotry.

Good on your friend for realising the implications for woman of that and treating women with respect instead.

@ClaryFairchild

Of course someone dressed as a woman will be using the women's toilets. I don't like to but can you imagine the abuse they will have if they enter that men's toilets?!

None whatsoever, I'd imagine.

Always has to be framed into who gets the prize and who gets to shut up, put up and have nothing at all.

Interesting that.

How about 'lets find answers that work equally for everyone?'

---

Third spaces. Nothing else works: how can a single-sex space exist if members of the opposite sex are given access to it? It can't.

And yes to cancelling or getting out of the evening. This is horribly narcissistic of the 'extra guest'. And you know what to do with narcs? Run away.

@Annette32123
That’s where we go wrong. Trying not to be rude.
Men are rude all the time. This chap is being rude. Nothing wrong with being rude back.

You know what, Annette, you're absolutely right. I constantly try to look after other people's feelings at the cost of my own. My mum brought me up to be polite and considerate of other people's feelings but she definitely didn't teach me to be a doormat. I've morphed into that all on my own! I'm so assertive over so many things but I hate to be perceived as rude or unaccommodating. I need to work on this. Thank you for that.

TeaKlaxon

Ereshkigalangcleg
They're saying that you don't automatically think that lesbians are attracted to you/will sexually assault you because they fancy other women.
Even if an individual lesbian did, Quaggars
, which they very likely don't, as 98% of sex crime is committed by male people, lesbians are female, and have as much rights to use women's toilets as any other female person. Men do not, even if they are the most wonderful woman supportive men on the planet. Because toilets are segregated by sex.

Just on this last point - toilets are not segregated by sex.

First, many toilets are not segregated at all. Just this last week I have been at a theatre with unisex bathrooms - just a series of cubicles used by men and women.

Second, no one has ever had to do a chromosome test, genital test or show their birth certificate to use a bathroom. There are no rules, much less laws, that require they be used only be people who meet one specific definition of men or women. There never have been.

Third, and linked to the above, trans people have been using bathrooms that align with their gender identity for generations.

Fourth, legally trans people are permitted to use facilities associated with their gender identity under the Equality Act. The exception to this is extremely limited - there can be no blanket ban on trans women using womens bathrooms for example.

So no, toilets are not segregated by sex.

What's more, OP's chances of sharing a toilet with a trans woman will not be significantly altered by her friend's friend joining their night out. Trans women who pass will tend to use the women's bathrooms. Trans women who don't pass tend not to. Despite all of the conjecture about her friend's friend relishing the ladies bathroom, she is probably dreading it and may well be seeking out gender neutral spaces to avoid awkwardness. Of course that doesn't suit the bigoted 'narcissist/fetishist' trope that folk here want to trot out but it is the reality.

A unicorn's unicorn trope👍

The amoral transgender male argument plus every female space already has a male occupant who passes.

The male with the male penis, is somehow unaware that the male penis is a male penis so has no moral issue with entering a single sex female space.

Or

The heterosexual/bisexual male of legal age with a female partner who has yet to discover acts of sexual reproduction. Not only do we never know, the male never knows either.

Of course someone dressed as a woman will be using the women's toilets. I don't like to but can you imagine the abuse they will have if they enter that men's toilets?!

Women get told constantly that it never happens, NAMALT, and if anything happens to make them uncomfortable in their toilets they just call the police and report it after it's happened. Besides which, predatory men will predate whatever you do so no point worrying.

Vile advice isn't it?

But it's not much nicer to imply that it's the job of women to act as human shields and take vulnerable men into their spaces and resources to protect them. However nice that might make you feel in yourself, we're talking about a lot of male people of various identities, because gay men are often treated badly in male spaces, young men, men with disabilities, there's a lot of vulnerable males. Do people with female biology need to provide mummy nursing care to all of them?

And still what are we going to do with the females we exclude from any space or resource so that some males can choose from all the spaces as to which one they feel works best for them, and some more privileged females can get to feel lovely and caring?

The long term solution is to address, properly, the behaviour or males, and to look at making all male spaces properly accessible and inclusive if males are feeling that they currently do not do this job.

The fast solution in the meantime is third spaces.

"The fast solution in the meantime is third spaces."

But that's rarely acceptable, because it's not "validating" enough.
Of course it makes most sense, and if it really was all about just "wanting to pee" then it would be acceptable - but it isn't.
Like open sport categories aren't.
Total capitulation is required.

In which case, the answer just has to be no.