AIBU? Trans friend....

[OrchardBlack]

Have NC'd for this.

So a close friend of mine (female) and I booked tickets to an event in our town some time ago, due to take place in a few weeks. Both excited and looking forward to it , all good.

A few weeks ago she asks me if a male , straight friend of hers can also join, no problem, the more the merrier. I've never met him.

Except it now transpires that he has (quite suddenly from what I gather) said he is transitioning to be a woman and will use this night as his 'coming out'. He has messaged my friend saying that he's going to wear a sun dress and heels and he's nervous but excited too. He has also said we are to refer to him by his female name. My friend says he is currently in a relationship with a woman.

Now my friend is saying she is finding this all a lot to take on so suddenly as she's known him for many years as his male name and never even seen him with makeup on. I asked if he would be using the women's toilets on our night out, she doesn't know but I can only assume he is.

I feel very uncomfortable, as does my friend. I am fully supportive of people choosing to live how they wish, I just can't help feeling he's high-jacked our night. He isn't out as trans to any of his family etc so he has said no photos of the night etc. I'm also massively concerned that he is clearly still attracted to women and what this means for the safe spaces such as toilets etc.

She says she doesn't feel like she can talk to him about it and is concocting a plan to say she has covid and giving me my money back so we don't go. I'm dissapointed as I was looking forward to it.

AIBU to be deflated and a bit annoyed??

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

I'm pleased your friends friend feels ready to come out and live their authentic self. It would take guts.

Difficult to hide that male entitlement and "It's all about meeee" thing in a sundress though.

They will realise quite quickly it's a few weeks to go until sundress season though, freeze they will

I dunno. I think men don't feel the cold as much. Plenty of men wearing shorts yesterday when it was only 10 degrees!

So @PutinIsAWarCriminal
Lets have a little peek at the verbal adjustments needed to justify a male deciding to make a fun social event all about his sun dress and heels at night in March/April in England.

I think YABU in jumping to conclusions.
[imo friend of a friend making the night all about his wants is a fair conclusion]
My teen female daughter dd has a male trans (girl) friend, and all it means is that he she is now addressed by a female girl's name and wears a female girl's school uniform.
[yet again the idea is reinforced that wearing a dress or skirt is "The Way" to signify being a girl/woman]

My dd and her female friends had a sensible conversation with him her about how uncomfortable and unsafe females girls would feel
[so your teen and other female teens are having to teach the male teen about their female right to have boundries and apparently teach the male teen about something which his parents and society generally did not teach him, a male ]

about having a male in the female girls' toilets and changing rooms,
[ notice the ability to correctly sex the teen is needed to justify that point]

especially a male one who is sexually attracted to both males and females bi.
[ is the fact that the teen is also sexually attracted to males to make the point that sexual orientation may not be the problem, but rather that males are not taught to respect female boundaries.]

Male Trans women doesn't or shouldn't have to be about appropriation and wolf in sheep's clothing, and his her wearing a sun dress and heels as a social declaration coming out on your night put is an opportunity for you to be listened to.
[ i beleive that is called "emotional labour" where the OP stops her activity to provide an "educational oppertunity". The OP wants a fun night out with someone she knows not acting as a support for the OPs friend. Your teen will be able to drink soon she will either have the friend (or be the friend) who gets a little too drunk to self-regulate or self-safeguard. Understanding that eucational opportunism and boozy nights out are never a good mix can be a dangerous life lesson to learn.]
What is particularly special about the night out?
[nothing special, that was the special bit]

It isn't a significant birthday or hen do, so I don't understand the comments about high jacking.
[OPs friend has third wheel syndrome]

Would you feel the same if he was coming out as gay, or are you worried about them attracting negative attention?
[why would the OP care about a strangers sexual orientation, the OP believed that the male in question is in a sex relationship. So presumabaly would be including him on her mental list of "people I wont date or have sex with". Unless OP hangs out in odd places or a pickup joint most people won't notice anybody out of their own social groups.]

Yet another man using women as his support humans. Take note, OP, of the people who try to shame you into complying.

Again, posters on about chromosome tests to use the loos....

Do you have any idea how bad you make transwomen look?

Transwomen are not all completely delusional and out of control. Stop it. Many are completely honest about knowing what sex they are and know that female spaces are not for them.

Why are some "allies" so intent on implying abusive, entitled behaviour is inherent to a trans identity?

I'm 4ft 10. I'm tiny. I've only met a handful of women that were the same height, I've never met one shorter. I've seen a female dwarf, who's taller than me, out and about. I've never seen a male dwarf irl. The shortest man I know, is 5ft 2, but built differently than me.

I could never, ever pass as male, as an adult, even if I wanted to. I would love to be intimidating, to have the size to back up my big mouth, but if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. I wonder if shorter/skinner men, are more likely to feel gender dysphoric, (those that don't go the other way, and go out of their way to assert their masculinity).

Lots of strange women have tried to bully me/pick fights with me over the years, usually when they were drunk. Happy slapping in general was a thing back then, and ladettes culture, but I blame that on internalised misogyny? Those girls that so wanted to emulate/impress/be one of "the lads", (because femininity and weakness are so awful?).

Men have used size and strength, to dominate women, since the dawn of time. They also say prostitution was the first form of currency, which I think says a lot about society too. For most of history, marriage had nothing to do with love, it was to enable patriarchy, and to help establish male primogeniture. Marital rape wasn't a crime in the UK, until the early 90's.

@Quaggars

It's not much different from the time my friend brought her 11yo along to a planned women's night out of drinking, and accordingly, we had to modify our drinking, our (bad) language and our conversation for the bratty little 11 yo in the thick of it acting like she was one of us. It's one member of the group hijacking the event to make it about them and to change it to it being about them. Fuck that.

Ugh. That's a child you're talking about.
How is this in any way comparable?!
The child will have had no say in whether they went or not
Surely the fault in your scenario is the mum who won't leave her kid at home when she wants a night out/be out with her mates??
From the 11 year old 's point of view I'm sure they'd rather be doing anything than stuck with her old fart mum and all her mates on a get together /wanting a pissed up sesh!
(I say this as someone who is firmly in the leave your kids at home on a night out rather than expect me to feel I have to babysit your kid/ watch my drinking or my language too.
OP and her friends are all presumably grown ups so not comparable.

I'm not blaming the kid. Kids that age can be bratty, my own included. It was all on her mum for allowing it. I agree with you there. However it was the inability of the mother to tell her daughter No. The child demanded to come with her mum, refused to stay with a babysitter. And mum caved even though every single one of us told her we weren't happy about it. And while I was told that she would go into a bedroom to watch a movie as a compromise she wouldn't do that when she arrived. She sat right in the middle of us trying to join in the adults conversation, and when I suggested that she go in and watch the movies I'd downloaded, she refused.

I suppose it's my fault too that her mother slipped her alcohol unbeknownst to me as well so "she could properly feel like one of us" - that really pissed me off when I found out the next day as mum laughed off her DDs slight hangover. .

Yeah, that friend was never invited back again.

@TeaKlaxon - in England and Wales, you are incorrect. There is no self-ID provision under the law in ENgland and Wales.
Stonewall would have you believe you are correct, but THEY are wrong too. It's what they would LIKE to be true, but it's not.

@Susu49

Um, yes I think yabu. Why can't you be happy for him?

Disclaimer: I'm aware I don't hold the same views as many in mumsnet.

"Sorry, her"

🤭 forgot yourself there didn't you 😂

@Jobseeker19

What I don't understand Re toilets, is that when our sons reach 8-9 maybe even younger, we make them go to the mens by themselves and that can be uncomfortable for me and them but its what we do to make other women feel comfortable.

We know our children do not pose any harm and they are with their mother, but they have a penis and need to use the mens toilet now. (Where they have to look down so they don't see mens bits in the urinals)

Why do transwomen feel like they can use the women's toilet even if they pose no harm?

Prehaps because the male toilet involves a little rite of passage. Where boys are strong enough and male enough to venture out on their own. They join Dad and brother and all the other male relatives and lame strangers Young males leave the shelter and protection of the women's space and also leave behind the obligation to provide shelter and protection in their space. Its a womans job to share the female space with all who are not men. So a new rite of passage develops, the symbolism is leaving the male toilets. Males still dont have to provide shelter and protection in their space (the theme continues, males will be violent to males in dresses)

@Joinedforthis22

clearly still attracted to women and what this means for the safe spaces such as toilets etc.

Honest question, do you feel the same about lesbians using female toilets? Or do you think your friend's friend can't control himself and is a rapist? Which if so I wonder why you are having anything to do with him.

Don't be silly, lesbians are no potential threat to women - that's a porn fantasy.

10% of men do pose a threat to women. How do you sort the good from the bad, before it is too late? Any man who pushes boundaries is more likely than not to be one of the 10%.

Males still dont have to provide shelter and protection in their space (the theme continues, males will be violent to males in dresses)

So sort out the men. This is not women's problem!

What a depressing thread.

For whoever it was replied to me above: no, I don’t like the idea of men coming into the ladies toilets. But you know what? Doesn’t really matter does it. We are not talking about a man, we are talking about a transwoman. If you can’t see the difference then it is a little bit sad.

The last transwoman I spoke to was the gentlest person I’ve ever met. She actually avoids public toilets or goes in the disabled as doesn’t want to make biological woman feel uncomfortable. This is what most transwomen are like. A lot of people on this thread really need to get a grip. I find it quite sad really as there used to be a sensible middle ground where you could be gender critical and suggest some things properly. Now it’s just a mess full of ridiculous comments and awful transphobia. You are never going to win with these attitudes. You’re just going to constantly distance yourself and it’ll only get worse.

no, I don’t like the idea of men coming into the ladies toilets. But you know what? Doesn’t really matter does it. We are not talking about a man, we are talking about a transwoman.

Whats the difference between a man and a transwoman?
Are they both male?

The last transwoman I spoke to was the gentlest person I’ve ever met. She actually avoids public toilets or goes in the disabled as doesn’t want to make biological woman feel uncomfortable. This is what most transwomen are like.

I am sorry, but if you agree with your transwoman friend that transwomen shouldn't use the female toilets, why is our saying the same transphobic?

We are not talking about a man, we are talking about a transwoman

What’s the difference? Can you answer without resorting to stereotypes?

@BiscuitLover3678

What a depressing thread.

For whoever it was replied to me above: no, I don’t like the idea of men coming into the ladies toilets. But you know what? Doesn’t really matter does it. We are not talking about a man, we are talking about a transwoman. If you can’t see the difference then it is a little bit sad.

The last transwoman I spoke to was the gentlest person I’ve ever met. She actually avoids public toilets or goes in the disabled as doesn’t want to make biological woman feel uncomfortable. This is what most transwomen are like. A lot of people on this thread really need to get a grip. I find it quite sad really as there used to be a sensible middle ground where you could be gender critical and suggest some things properly. Now it’s just a mess full of ridiculous comments and awful transphobia. You are never going to win with these attitudes. You’re just going to constantly distance yourself and it’ll only get worse.

A "transwoman" is a man. Being a man is the baseline criteria for being a "transwoman". "Transwomen" are a subset of men, not women.

Men who identify as trans do not know what it is to be a woman as the only way you can know that is to be an adult human female. Men who identify as trans know as much about being a woman as men who do not identify as trans.

Growing your hair, wearing clothes that you stereotypically associate with women (and which many women never actually wear), castrating yourself by removing your penis and testicles, taking cross-sex hormones, none of this makes a man a woman. It simply makes a castrated man who takes cross-sex hormones and who likes to present as his idea of what a woman is.

It really isn't complicated. It is not transphobic to point out reality.

The last transwoman I spoke to was the gentlest person I’ve ever met. She actually avoids public toilets or goes in the disabled as doesn’t want to make biological woman feel uncomfortable. This is what most transwomen are like.

Sounds like he is a man who respects women's boundaries. Maybe he can coach other men who identify as trans to respect women's boundaries in the same way.

If you can’t see the difference then it is a little bit sad.

The description of this person is in the OP. Can you help me to understand the difference between a biological male person saying they are a transwoman and another male person, both with or without a sundress and heels?

That would certainly be refreshing ,justaftb

OP I think you should go. Ignore Narc-in-a-Dress. Take lots and lots and lots of pics of you and your friend.

Completely agree @justaftb

@justaftb spot on. Agree with every word. It's not transphobic to describe reality.

@georgarina

*Of course females dressed as a female will be using the female toilets. I don't like to but can you imagine the abuse females will have if females enter that male toilets?! "GtFO, Go use the female toilets this is a male only toilet"*

So we expect and accept men defending their spaces, but women aren't allowed to defend theirs (even though they're the ones at risk of being unsafe).

@georgarina

That was my point.
The language chosen by the original poster manages to hide the sex, female (OP and friend) and male (friends friend).

This supports the idea that this male will be horribly abused in the male toilets and therefor the womens toilet must be offered as the only solution.

Wow, someone not invited, by you, at least, telling you what words you can/can’t say and told you no photos! What other things are you going to be told you can/can’t do?
Do yourself a favour, stand up for what you want on your night out and say that under these new circumstances, you’d rather just go with your friend, or a different friend if she no longer wants to go but you’re not entertaining these conditions being forced on you!

Ok @justaftb we can have different opinions about this. At the end of the day, most of society will look at who is the most damaged by the situation at hand. It’s not generally black and white.