Trans issues - just sad and disappointed

[Chasingthebutterflies]

Don't know what I want to say really. Haven't properly formulated my thoughts. Just came on to talk about it. Feeling a bit sad.

I was texting a friend (a man) about the recent case of the woman raped by a man in a hospital and the hospital's denial that she couldn't have been raped because there was no man.

My friend's response - the media wants us to think that all trans men are rapists, demonising the trans community, it's disgusting, it'll be us gays next.

I'm sad because there was no concern for the woman, I'm sad because despite my trying to explain that my issue is simply people with penises wanting access to spaces that are for people with vaginas only. Nothing to do with whether they are trans or not (a biological woman who lives as a trans man still accesses a female single sex space). Because it's not a trans issue. It's a male issue. I'm sad because I don't want to have to lie to my DC and say that a man standing in front of me is a woman. I want to be able to say that he is a biological male who chooses to live as a woman. But I want to be able to say that without being labelled transphobic. Because I'm not. There's no judgment. But there is a desire for safeguarding.

Just sad. Feels bonkers. Feels like I'm living in a big game of pretend.

These things probably shouldn't really be discussed on text anyway, but it has just made me sad and concerned.

I just don’t get why so many women are all for allowing less than one % of the population into women’s spaces. This 1% sexually are generally men. Men do not need helping.

Hopefully not too far off topic, but I was guessing that the precentage of women shoplifters might be relatively high, so I looked it up, and in 2019:

Of the 34,300 defendants convicted for shoplifting, 9,600 (28%) were female.

so, not very high. But yes, when we walk into Boots, we're all treated the same.

Taken from www.gov.uk/government/statistics/women-and-the-criminal-justice-system-2019/women-and-the-criminal-justice-system-2019

Also on that page is the reminder that 30% of all female convictions are for TV licence evasion, just in case we'd forgotten what kind of crimes us naughty women are usually in prison for.

It's quite interesting that certain posters are very keen to have us believe that women can rape and sexually assaults just as much as men, but Transwomen are gentle as butterflies and would never harm anyone ever....

Hello @Chasingthebutterflies, well here we are, on the naughty step again. You're in very good company m'dear.

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer yeah I dunno I guess I'm terrified that maybe I am a bigot for thinking that trans women are women is about as meaningful as Brexit means Brexit. Gnomic bollocks. But of course if I say that I'm automatically a bigot in the eyes of most people. And I don't think I am so then I just doubt everything.

[quote Cherryblossoms85]@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer yeah I dunno I guess I'm terrified that maybe I am a bigot for thinking that trans women are women is about as meaningful as Brexit means Brexit. Gnomic bollocks. But of course if I say that I'm automatically a bigot in the eyes of most people. And I don't think I am so then I just doubt everything.[/quote]
You’re not lampchop and neither am i 😀

And honestly…

I would put any money you like on the fact that people who believe sex can’t be changed, believe that self id is actually a load of dangerous bollocks, believe that single sex spaces should be protected, and believe transpeople deserve every human right….are in the vast vast majority

I just don’t get why so many women are all for allowing less than one % of the population into women’s spaces

You can't let just 1% of men into female only spaces. By allowing just 1 man in, it is no longer a female only space.

I don't get why they are allowing a tiny group of MEN to redefine the very meaning of the word woman just so they can pretend they are in some way part of our sex class.

I recall doing some research on sexual assaults by women in prison previously. They do happen, but very often have a completely different motivation. One of the main reasons they occur is that prisoners smuggle contraband in their vaginas and other groups may try to retrieve these. It’s horrendous, but a very different crime to rape and not easily comparable. This will completely skew the figures on female perpetrated sexual assault.

@Cherryblossoms85

I'm trying to keep away from anything I haven't experienced personally. I hate the whole lia Thomas thing, but I'm just trying to frame this all in what I know and I guess I am not and never have been disadvantaged or threatened by a trans person or someone masquerading as one.

One can know things without having directly experienced them oneself. I have never experienced rape, domestic violence, CSA, homelessness etc. but I know they exist and I don't remain ambivalent about them because they don't affect me.

I can see why you'd want to be sure you're being as objective as possible, but really it's time to pick a side. Lia Thomas is one big fuck-off Trojan horse being welcomed inside the city by the witless, the cowardly and the opportunistic.

It's quite interesting that certain posters are very keen to have us believe that women can rape and sexually assaults just as much as men, but Transwomen are gentle as butterflies and would never harm anyone ever..

Such a pity those pesky crime statistics blow this completely out of the water. Just pretend that 98+% of sex offenders are not men and that the 48% of self identified transwomen in prison who are convicted sex offenders are not really trans.

The baroness said on Twitter that 10 other cases have benn reported to her

No other details

I just KNEW this thread would be moved to the naughty corner. Us pesky women having bad opinions must be kept hush.

And yes OP, it is beyond depressing that on a site called Mumsnet - which is primarily by women for women - women who talk about women's issues are being scolded and banned, or deleted.

A few years ago several prominent posters (LangCleg and others) were permanently banned from this site for talking about this issue.

That's when you realise how far this has all gone in the media etc. in terms of manipulating the narrative. It's far easier to say 'oh it's just a few nasty women bleating on' when any woman who dares speak out is chastised and shut down. And far easier to say 'all fine, nothing wrong here' when news stories are blatantly manipulated to serve an agenda. For example male rapists being called female etc.

Also, if you're new here (I'm not, but have recently namechanged) - you will start to realise that certain posters, like MargarhitaPie and others, come onto a thread simply to derail and gaslight.

Best to just ignore them and carry on. Will save you a giant headache.

@MargaritaPie

In my opinion, the media seems to treat trans-people the same way it treated gay people a couple of decades ago. Almost as if the media is now targeting trans-people as the new community to shit on because they know they won't get away with homophobia anymore.

I like to think in a couple more decades, transphobia will be seen as unacceptable as homophobia is now.

You keep saying that Marg

But you never listen.

Point out anything here that is transphobic. The many posts pointing out that it is men that we are talking about? That it is women's rights we are defending?

Or just the plain fact that all transwomen are, by very definition, male?

Come on... Tell us what it is that is being typed that is actually transohibic.

I can wait, but won't hold my breath ...

The thing Cherry is every TW who takes a woman’s place takes something from all women

They take from us our right to define ourselves. Only adult human females can be women - including TW means the definition of women is “adult human female and men who feel like women” (whatever that feels like). If the definition of women includes men that removes at a stroke any and all single sex provision for women and our ability to define ourselves

Then there are the specific examples. Programmes set up to increase the representation of women in politics including TW (men), university womens officers being male students, prizes for womens fuction including TW (men). TW being included in women a sport despite a huge weight of evidence showing they retain the benefits of puberty; essentially the entire rules of sport are being rewritten to ensure some men aren’t sad because they can’t compete with women; the unfairness to women is simply handwaved aside

Men have so much in our world but it’s still not enough, they want the small amount of things women had for themselves. So yes it affects all of us personally

This will completely skew the figures on female perpetrated sexual assault.

As does recording male crimes as being committed by female perpetrators which now happens.

Gnomic bollocks.

Thanks Cherry. I learned a new word today. Gnomic bollocks it is.

I think though that something that those actively pushing to prioritise gender identity over sex where, in fact, sex matters, is that the mantra is losing power.

Yes, they can fire up twitter and get it trending all too easily. But the reality is that over the past few years, people are seeing what the real effects of that mantra means and are no longer believing.

And even the 'well the younger generation are still very inclusive' trope will be soon proven to be incorrect too. Over time. You only have to look at the overwhelming response of those young women swimmers to understand the whole entire thing is a house of cards. Those young women have now understand the ramifications of that mantra. When they understood, when they also understood their universities have tied them contractually to remain silent, they found a way to show how they felt. The message was very clear from them each day.

The thing with 'mantras' leading ideological thinking that has no solid foundation, is that they are not stable.

@SamphiretheStickerist

Of course the case is important. But it is also imo important to remind people that not all trans women are potential rapists.

But they are. In the same way as every other man is when it comes to safeguarding

I'd go so far as to argue that almost all trans women are not potential rapists.

Statistics will prove you wrong. Every transwomen is as likely to rape as any other man. And the % of transwomen in prison for sexual offences against women is higher than that of men who do not identify as women.

There are so very many threads here with all of the ONS MoJ etc data. Many of the regular posters keep those stats up to date on threads like It Never Happens or Break It Down For Me.

And if a man wants to rape women, he'll find a way, whatever 'safe spaces' there are

Ah well, we'll just do away with safeguarding altogether then. Men gonna rape....

I am not surprised but always astounded to see the MRA line being used so strongly to defend transitioned males.

But it is also imo important to remind people that not all trans women are potential rapists.

No shit sherlock. Not all males are rapists. Well done.

I have so far read the first few pages and the last few pages on and am getting to the middle.

Have we had any evidence on this thread where the poster who posted this or any other has provided:

a) studies or statistics that show that transitioning decreases the propensity to commit sex crimes in transitioned males compared to the rest of the male population?

and

b) how we can tell exactly which male (transitioned or not) is not going to commit an act of abuse, assault, or rape so we know which one is a 'good' one?

If not, then they are just the usual misogynistic poster telling us to STFU.

same old, same old.

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie

The appalling rates of conviction for rape in this country are a national shame. But that is not a trans issue; it's a failure of policing and governance.

Sure. It is a failure of policing and governance.

However, it becomes a 'trans issue' as you put it because it is a 'male issue'.

Does being a groupie absolve you of the processes required for critical thinking?

@titchy

This will completely skew the figures on female perpetrated sexual assault.

As does recording male crimes as being committed by female perpetrators which now happens.

Yeah, we keep being told that in countries where self ID has been introduced that these sorts of crimes have not increased, and that no men have taken advantage of it. We also keep being told that if a credit occur just report it.

The truth is there's no way of recording the crimes correctly, and even when they are reported it is denied, minimised or ignored. The victim is lied to, lied about, smeared and defamed. Told to prioritise anything and everything else before her experience and she's the wrong kind of victim anyway so it doesn't matter... oh and I almost forgot, talking about it harms others so please do STFU dear.

We've heard all this again and again here and elsewhere. These people don't care about women.

Honestly every time I hear of a case like this I think things can't get any worse and then they do.

I'm sick of it, I'm sick and tired, exhausted and enraged by all of it. I just never fail to be surprised how much they hate us and it fucking kills me it really does.

But it is also imo important to remind people that not all trans women are potential rapists

It’s just this persistent refusal to see a woman’s point of view, or even to admit that we have one, isn’t it?

Yes, from their own perspective, I’m sure most transwomen and men are not potential rapists.

From the point of view of a female stranger sharing a hospital ward with you, of course that’s what you are. Any woman who doesn’t have this perspective is frankly very lucky (or young and naive.) Women have to protect ourselves from predatory scrotum-havers. Having boundaries away from men when we are vulnerable is a big part of how we do that. It’s upsetting and scary (and for many women retraumatising) to have those boundaries removed even if the scrotum having stranger we are vulnerable to is a perfect gentleman. We can’t see souls.

@RhymesWithOrange

Don't be sad and disappointed. Be furious. Women are deliberately being put in harms' way for the sake of a regressive ideology being driven by men with either mental health issues or predatory motives. Be angry, not sad.

Yes.

So I have finished reading the thread.

There is no answer to our usual questions.

a) studies or statistics that show that transitioning decreases the propensity to commit sex crimes in transitioned males compared to the rest of the male population?

and

b) how we can tell exactly which male (transitioned or not) is not going to commit an act of abuse, assault, or rape so we know which one is a 'good' one?

Here is a new question:

c) what words should women use to describe their specific and particular concerns about the erosion of safeguarding that is not offensive to those labelling women as 'transphobic'? The exact words and terminology please.

There is just the usual attempt to shame, denigrate, distract, limit and police other posters on this thread. Posters who do this never seem to have any solid evidence to base their assertions on.... just emotional manipulation and 'feelz'.

And they wonder why people don't listen to them.

Well, I look forward to seeing those answered. Anyone else?

Yeah, we keep being told that in countries where self ID has been introduced that these sorts of crimes have not increased, and that no men have taken advantage of it.

This really bugs me - I'm in Ireland where Self ID has been the law for a few years (brought in by stealth without proper public consultation), there are several male sex offenders in women's prison, including a violent offender who has to be separated from the women for their safety.This is not properly reported by the media, who have swallowed this nonsense completely.

The whole 'it's all fine, nothing to see here' is a complete lie.

But hey, there are no problems because we aren't allowed to talk about the problems, and the media will not report on the problems. So there are no problems, right?

I can see why you'd want to be sure you're being as objective as possible, but really it's time to pick a side. Lia Thomas is one big fuck-off Trojan horse being welcomed inside the city by the witless, the cowardly and the opportunistic.

Amen.