Trans issues - just sad and disappointed

[Chasingthebutterflies]

Don't know what I want to say really. Haven't properly formulated my thoughts. Just came on to talk about it. Feeling a bit sad.

I was texting a friend (a man) about the recent case of the woman raped by a man in a hospital and the hospital's denial that she couldn't have been raped because there was no man.

My friend's response - the media wants us to think that all trans men are rapists, demonising the trans community, it's disgusting, it'll be us gays next.

I'm sad because there was no concern for the woman, I'm sad because despite my trying to explain that my issue is simply people with penises wanting access to spaces that are for people with vaginas only. Nothing to do with whether they are trans or not (a biological woman who lives as a trans man still accesses a female single sex space). Because it's not a trans issue. It's a male issue. I'm sad because I don't want to have to lie to my DC and say that a man standing in front of me is a woman. I want to be able to say that he is a biological male who chooses to live as a woman. But I want to be able to say that without being labelled transphobic. Because I'm not. There's no judgment. But there is a desire for safeguarding.

Just sad. Feels bonkers. Feels like I'm living in a big game of pretend.

These things probably shouldn't really be discussed on text anyway, but it has just made me sad and concerned.

I feel sad about it too, I’ve basically been labelled transphobic but I think of myself as pro womens safety, dignity, sporting achievements, awards, representation etc.

I had a similar conversation with a gay male friend some time ago OP. He absolutely did not give a shit about women, it was all about the poor trans folk and the endless 'transphobia' they face every day. He fully expected women to just shut up and be kind and move aside and generally do what we are told. It was really shocking, and sad, and made me very angry to be honest. I don't feel the same about him as I used to. And of course he calls himself a feminist he's bloody clueless

@FlibbertyGiblets

Not all men are rapists. However all rapists are men. Men dont like to hear this.

They really don't. At the current employment tribunal for Maya Forstater a man being questioned took mighty offence to the statistic of 99% of sex offenders are male. Started saying it was a problem, misleading. The guy works at a bloody think tank and couldn't get his head around it didn't mean 99% of men were sex attackers fgs, he went straight to it's a small percent of males - not all men basically.

@PearPickingPorky

Not All Men™, FitAt50, but men, as a class, tend not to be too bothered by the extremely high rates of male sexual violence and harassment against women.

That's why women end up asking them to imagine that a woman assaulted by another man could be their daughter or mother or sister. Because we have to try and personalise it to get them to have any compassion.

Yes, it's the labelling as transphobic that really gets me. But somehow that translates into the only agenda that matters here is the man's. The man's need to join whatever space he wants (because you don't see women fighting to join men's spaces really). How mean to not let him be who he wants to be. We're seen as collateral damage.

I support every person's right to live as they please. That's not the issue for me at all. It's about biological, intact males being in female only spaces. Isn't that what it boils down to?

It's the language that's used. Some of you upthread had it right. It's not a trans issue. Not at all. So to keep labelling it as such means we look at the wrong things. In the meantime it's women who suffer.

Well it's not "trans issues" is it? It's one incident. It's pretty telling you could have said "single sex wards - sad and disappointed" or "violence against women - sad and disappointed". But no. You lead with "trans issues". Would you have said "gay issues" if a gay man had attacked someone? No. You wouldn't. Because that would be homophobic.

There's a pretty high social (and sometimes financial) cost involved in fully understanding these issues. To a man like your friend that cost likely isn't worth paying. He thinks he has no skin in the game. So, he can parrot the Guardian view and maintain his relationships with other lefty "folx", stay out of trouble at work, avoid a knock on the door from the police. Job done. Nice one!

But those of us who know we are negatively impacted by it, don't have that luxury.

That said, if your friend is gay he would do well to do some research. Does he know that Stonewall now define homosexual like this...?

This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

And gender:

Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth.

So the biggest charity lobby group for gay people is actually out there saying that homosexuality isn't same sex attraction, but same stereotype attraction.

Your male friend who is male attracted would be expected to have masculine people in his dating pool.

Males and females can be masculine ergo the org that purports to champion his rights as a gay man says he is (or should be) bisexual. Let that outrage sink in!

www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/faqs-and-glossary/list-lgbtq-terms

It's the language that's used. Some of you upthread had it right. It's not a trans issue. Not at all. So to keep labelling it as such means we look at the wrong things. In the meantime it's women who suffer

Why did you call your thread trans issues then?

Cerealnamechangerer makes a good point. We must stop talking about "trans" issues when the issue is actually some men.

The men who enter spaces meant for women.

Talking in terms of men and women, male and female brings much greater clarity too, so I think it's a win win.

Cereal has made a good point which has been acknowledge and I suggest we don't get derailed by rehashing it

It really pisses me off that after all the news reporting, after 'Me Too' men can still be so absolutely clueless about the world (especially young) women live in. Or many they just don't care .

Yes it is a good point. So I guess yes it's about biological males who seek to enter female only spaces, regardless of what they call themselves.

I will take that on board.

@AnneLovesGilbert

Would he have sex with a trans man eg a woman with a vagina? If not does he want to be considered as bad as a racist?

More to the point would he have sex with a self identified transwoman who has kept their penis in case they need it for a rainy day?

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie

I absolutely agree that all trans women are being demonised for the sins of a few.

But if you want to find yourself pretty much in an echo chamber of outrage, you're in the right place.

It's the mechanism that allows anyone to declare themselves a woman, even if they are rapists, that is being "demonised", because it's harmful and illogical. But you know that and choose to pretend otherwise, which makes people think that those arguing for self-id are dishonest.

I've been on here for years and try to engage pro-self-id folk in good faith. Guess what? They always ignore the questions that they don't want to admit the answer to, or can't say the answer to.

I do wonder when we are going to see a woman suing the NHS for diagnosing her with prostate problems.

It is a trans issue, because it's about the direct consequences of the laws and policies brought in by countless bodies and employers specifically as requested by trans people. Trans Rights activists argue that gender is a feeling that defines what sex you are treated as and that actual sex is irrelevant.

The rape and its denial happened because of policies directly brought about by trans groups.

If from the start they'd been open about it being a mixed sex ward, things would've been different. Safeguarding wouldn't have been thrown out of the window, for a start.

Ask your friend how he would feel if he's been raped but it was dismissed because the rapist is 'a woman'.

@pointythings

I think we need to take a more pragmatic approach and that this must include the provision of women only and men only spaces. I also think in sports there should be separate categories for transmen and transwomen.

I am coming to a similar conclusion. I mean, what else is there that’s fair?

Except I think most trans people would be in a category by themselves. Which would, I suppose, highlight the ridiculousness of basing all trans rules on incredibly niche examples.

It's all blowing up now, everything we gender criticals warned about.

It's time to pick a side.

Are you for women, or against?

This is completely and utterly a trans issue and to say otherwise is foolish. A minority are screaming and completely overpowering 51% of the population..this is because they are men or transwomen. A tea woman is a transwomen, this means she was born a man so has make experiences through puberty and has male strength, height and muscle mass.
Fact.

I think what I don't understand is why trans women need to be called women and not transwomen. If the hospital had referred from the start to the person as a transwomen, the potential for rape would be clear. Transwomen (and men but paricularly women) should be a separate group for statistics such as crime and even for areas in prison (seem to be enough transwomen to get their own area).

I take the point that language is important - I made that same point - but while we are being policed for using the wrong language to articulate what is essentially a straightforward point - people with penises in spaces for people with vaginas - women are actually getting hurt. What is the priority here?

That poor woman - she must have thought the world was going mad.

I'm 53, and almost all of my friends - male and female - have well and truly 'drunk the Kool Aid' and are all banging on about trans rights on social media. Even my own partner of 13 years truly believes the 'trans women are women' trope...and he has a biological sciences degree!

I have noted with sad amusement that they've all been very quiet about this case, though...

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie

The appalling rates of conviction for rape in this country are a national shame. But that is not a trans issue; it's a failure of policing and governance.

It very much is a trans issue though, because the whole reason this wasn't investigated properly in the first instance was because of how the male perpetrator identified.

A failure of policing that was aided and abetted by a very deliberate denial of reality.

So yes, it is a trans issue - it is the very issue women keep banging on about.

Every single person that goes along with the absurdity that a man can be a woman is responsible for this bullshit.

A man took a gold medal from a woman who was the fastest female swimmer because his special feelings of ladyness mattered more than her being allowed fair competition. He was allowed to do whatever he fucking wants because he's a man. The second he said, 'I'm a woman', everyone else's brains fell out and must pretend that this privileged, straight, white man is one of the most oppressed people on the fucking planet.

A man raped a woman in hospital and the hospital told police it couldn't have happened because the man said he was a woman. The victim called a liar and gaslit for knowing her rapist was a man.

A serial killer in America who had butchered many women during his life and the headlines all called him a woman.

Apparently 61% of young PEOPLE are embarrassed by their periods and 2 PEOPLE a day die of cervical cancer.
The words women and girls being disconnected from our biology whilst using 'woman' for reporting male serial killers, sex offenders and paedophiles.

Humans cannot change sex. If you think it's ok for women to be forced to validate male identities and step aside whilst men appropriate female oppression, you might want to ask yourself why you are so willing to default to men. Why you think male feelings matter most. Why men who claim to have a 'gender identity' should be pandered to at the expense of an entire sex class?