Trans issues - just sad and disappointed

[Chasingthebutterflies]

Don't know what I want to say really. Haven't properly formulated my thoughts. Just came on to talk about it. Feeling a bit sad.

I was texting a friend (a man) about the recent case of the woman raped by a man in a hospital and the hospital's denial that she couldn't have been raped because there was no man.

My friend's response - the media wants us to think that all trans men are rapists, demonising the trans community, it's disgusting, it'll be us gays next.

I'm sad because there was no concern for the woman, I'm sad because despite my trying to explain that my issue is simply people with penises wanting access to spaces that are for people with vaginas only. Nothing to do with whether they are trans or not (a biological woman who lives as a trans man still accesses a female single sex space). Because it's not a trans issue. It's a male issue. I'm sad because I don't want to have to lie to my DC and say that a man standing in front of me is a woman. I want to be able to say that he is a biological male who chooses to live as a woman. But I want to be able to say that without being labelled transphobic. Because I'm not. There's no judgment. But there is a desire for safeguarding.

Just sad. Feels bonkers. Feels like I'm living in a big game of pretend.

These things probably shouldn't really be discussed on text anyway, but it has just made me sad and concerned.

But this thread is about this one case. Why try to derail? Is this case, and how it happened, not incredibly important?

It arose because of the policy that threw safeguarding out of the window and allowed it to happen and also deny that it did.

The thing that worries me most about all this is how society has accepted that it can turn its back on logical argument if to do so is thought to be just/kind/progressive.

I used this think I didn’t understand the TWAW/TMAM argument, but I now realise there isn’t one really beyond extremely convoluted queer theory which the average person does not understand. Instead, we get reprimands for being mean or cruel or bigoted. I would agree that MN is largely an echo chamber for GC views, but whenever anyone with another perspective does say anything it’s largely a cutting, definitive-sounding rebuke for everyone being a transphobe.

Sorry, but that is not an argument.

We’re living in an age where we are being expected to mould reality to what we (or some people) think it should be. I do experience a strange sensation reading about how the state and media in Russia is lying to people when influential organisations in the West expound a dogma that - for the life of me - I cannot see as anything other than flying in the face of reality.

If it can happen in relation to this issue, what comes next?

Also - this is a topic that I simply don’t raise with most people I know as I don’t want to be written off as a bigot. I believe if people truly listened to why I believe what I believe they wouldn’t think that, even if they disagreed themselves, but it seems many people simply refuse to think about this issue or engage in any sort of consideration of it.

I do hope the NHS, Department of Health, Government, MP's of all parties are happy that the next massive scandal to rock the NHS will be the NHS's complicity in the rape and sexual assault of women patients.

@PrelateChuckles

But this thread is about this one case. Why try to derail? Is this case, and how it happened, not incredibly important?

It arose because of the policy that threw safeguarding out of the window and allowed it to happen and also deny that it did.

Of course the case is important. But it is also imo important to remind people that not all trans women are potential rapists. I'd go so far as to argue that almost all trans women are not potential rapists. And if a man wants to rape women, he'll find a way, whatever 'safe spaces' there are.

I'm sad because I don't want to have to lie to my DC and say that a man standing in front of me is a woman. I want to be able to say that he is a biological male who chooses to live as a woman. But I want to be able to say that without being labelled transphobic.

It is no more transphobic to say that than saying "Jews don't believe in Christ" is anti-Semitic (or anti-Christian). If the feminine-presenting male was banned from the men's toilets or the men's football team purely because the other men don't feel comfortable about the feminine male's presentation or beliefs, that would be transphobia.

Trans women suffer enormously from being forced into male only spaces, whether in prison, hospital or wherever

So your solution to male on male violence is to put force females to hand over their safe spaces and put themselves in danger?

If transwomen are in danger in men's prison then a separate wing in a men's prison is the correct solution. Not putting male sex offenders and rapists into female prisons and forcing women prisoners to shower with fully intact men.
The fucking selfishness and male entitlement is off the scale.

Who gives shit how many women and children get raped or attacked eh? As long as the males get their identities validated.

Transwomen can sort their own spaces if they want to be separated from other men. Ask Stonewall and the rest of the organisations having money thrown at them to promote men's rights activism to campaign for 3rd 'gender free' spaces.
It isn't up to women to accommodate or protect a subset of the male sex class at great detriment to themselves.

I am fucking done with gutless people and politicians pretending that 'woman' is now something entirely indefinable and indistinguishable from a group of men, unless it is inconvenient for other men of course when they still want to oppress us.

I have every sympathy for homosexual transexuals and other men with dysphoria but that is on them to deal with and forcing people to pretend they no different from women because it might 'trigger' them or hurt their feelings is not a good enough reason to fuck over 51% of the population who should be being protected on the basis of their SEX.

But it is also imo important to remind people that not all trans women are potential rapists. I'd go so far as to argue that almost all trans women are not potential rapists.

Most men are not rapists but all men are potential rapists by virtue of having penis and testosterone. As transwomen are male they share that potential. Except for the ~5% that opt for emasculation surgery. Having had their penis removed, that small percentage of transwomen are not potential rapists.

And if a man wants to rape women, he'll find a way, whatever 'safe spaces' there are.

Like claiming to be a transwoman.

Remus if you've just come here to NAMALT can you please find a thread that isn't about a woman who was raped as a direct result of poor policy which was the covered up?

It's a terrible look for you.

If transwomen are in danger in men's prison then a separate wing in a men's prison is the correct solution. Not putting male sex offenders and rapists into female prisons and forcing women prisoners to shower with fully intact men.
The fucking selfishness and male entitlement is off the scale.

If transwomen are in danger in male prisons then they should be treated the same way as other male prisoners in danger in male prisons. Male informers aren't put in female prisons to keep them safe. Why should any other male prisoners be put in women's prisons?

And if a man wants to rape women, he'll find a way, whatever 'safe spaces' there are.

This is such a bad argument. Rape and other sexual offences are so clearly opportunistic crimes. You make it easier by increasing access, you create the opportunities.

You could argue there is no need for safeguarding wrt children as some abusers are sufficiently determined that nothing will stand in their way - but nobody does because the consequences would be abhorrent. What is really meant by this particular argument is that a certain level of increased violence against women is an acceptable price to pay for inclusion. It’s the lesser of two evils. Well, I don’t agree.

Btw, nobody with an ounce of intelligence thinks all TW are rapists. That is not what this is about.

Not all men sexually abuse but 96% of sexual abuse cases are committed by a man this includes transgender women - or did.

@PrelateChuckles

Of course the case is important. But it is also imo important to remind people that not all trans women are potential rapists. I'd go so far as to argue that almost all trans women are not potential rapists. And if a man wants to rape women, he'll find a way, whatever 'safe spaces' there are.

Your last sentence is appalling. You think there's no need to bother with any safeguarding because it won't stop all rapists?

This is worse than the morons who thought unless vaccines stopped all cases of covid, you shouldn't have them.

Just shows a toddler level of comprehension of risk, harm and safeguarding.

And if you think that a rapist will find a way no matter what safe spaces there are, do you agree that there is therefore no reason for a TW to be in a female sex-segregated space?

Why are you arguing one rule for TW and one for female women? Do you think they are different?

You are deliberately choosing to misunderstand me.

@FlibbertyGiblets

Not all men are rapists. However all rapists are men. Men dont like to hear this.

True - who was that rapist in Manchester who raped so many young men… wasn’t he actually one of the worst rapists on record?

All rapists are men.

Why should women accommodate violent dangerous men in their prisons? Why is it always women and girls that have to accommodate the male sex. Even in schools, girls are used to quieten the boys. And now we have to let the male sex win our sporting medals. Im sick of it.

@TheWeeDonkey

Remus if you've just come here to NAMALT can you please find a thread that isn't about a woman who was raped as a direct result of poor policy which was the covered up?

It's a terrible look for you.

I don't even understand this.

@MistyFuckingQuigley
You are choosing to see things that I am not saying.

The women that was raped. That could be your daughter, your mum, your sister. Hospitals should be safe. I’m not happy that male sexed people are on my ward when I’m sick and vulnerable.

Of course the case is important. But it is also imo important to remind people that not all trans women are potential rapists. I'd go so far as to argue that almost all trans women are not potential rapists. And if a man wants to rape women, he'll find a way, whatever 'safe spaces' there are.

Statistics clearly show that TW offend at the same right and commit the same type of crimes as males who are not TW.

There are a number of TW in Prison for sexual offences, in fact if you look at the percentage of the TW population in prison for these offences it works out as higher proportionately when compared with the male population who are not TW.

Not all men are potential rapists, still not allowed in female single sex spaces, because we can't tell the difference between the ones who might be and the ones who are definitely not.

Not all men who go into teaching, sports coaching, or any other activity involving children are potential paedophiles, still require a DBS check though and safeguarding rules implemented on the possibility they might be.

Safeguarding works on the basis of the worst case scenario.

I see you've dragged out the old If a man wants to rape he will find a way argument so we remove all safeguarding and safety measures that will minimise the possibility and just have free for all and then say to the victims Oh dear, never mind, it would have happened whatever? How revolting.

@RashofBees

The thing that worries me most about all this is how society has accepted that it can turn its back on logical argument if to do so is thought to be just/kind/progressive.

I used this think I didn’t understand the TWAW/TMAM argument, but I now realise there isn’t one really beyond extremely convoluted queer theory which the average person does not understand. Instead, we get reprimands for being mean or cruel or bigoted. I would agree that MN is largely an echo chamber for GC views, but whenever anyone with another perspective does say anything it’s largely a cutting, definitive-sounding rebuke for everyone being a transphobe.

Sorry, but that is not an argument.

We’re living in an age where we are being expected to mould reality to what we (or some people) think it should be. I do experience a strange sensation reading about how the state and media in Russia is lying to people when influential organisations in the West expound a dogma that - for the life of me - I cannot see as anything other than flying in the face of reality.

If it can happen in relation to this issue, what comes next?

I couldn’t agree more with this.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

Trans women suffer enormously from being forced into male only spaces, whether in prison, hospital or wherever

So your solution to male on male violence is to put force females to hand over their safe spaces and put themselves in danger?

If transwomen are in danger in men's prison then a separate wing in a men's prison is the correct solution. Not putting male sex offenders and rapists into female prisons and forcing women prisoners to shower with fully intact men.
The fucking selfishness and male entitlement is off the scale.

Who gives shit how many women and children get raped or attacked eh? As long as the males get their identities validated.

Transwomen can sort their own spaces if they want to be separated from other men. Ask Stonewall and the rest of the organisations having money thrown at them to promote men's rights activism to campaign for 3rd 'gender free' spaces.
It isn't up to women to accommodate or protect a subset of the male sex class at great detriment to themselves.

I am fucking done with gutless people and politicians pretending that 'woman' is now something entirely indefinable and indistinguishable from a group of men, unless it is inconvenient for other men of course when they still want to oppress us.

I have every sympathy for homosexual transexuals and other men with dysphoria but that is on them to deal with and forcing people to pretend they no different from women because it might 'trigger' them or hurt their feelings is not a good enough reason to fuck over 51% of the population who should be being protected on the basis of their SEX.

A million times yes to this.

If anybody has decided to think I'm somehow anti-safeguarding or excusing rape, then you're clearly and deliberately choosing to misunderstand me.

My argument is against the people who seem to assume that all trans women are by their very nature dangerous. That attitude is as abhorrent to me, as the all men are potential rapists due to having a penis argument.

See you later, folks. Enjoy the sunshine.