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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Trans issues - just sad and disappointed

250 replies

Chasingthebutterflies · 19/03/2022 08:59

Don't know what I want to say really. Haven't properly formulated my thoughts. Just came on to talk about it. Feeling a bit sad.

I was texting a friend (a man) about the recent case of the woman raped by a man in a hospital and the hospital's denial that she couldn't have been raped because there was no man.

My friend's response - the media wants us to think that all trans men are rapists, demonising the trans community, it's disgusting, it'll be us gays next.

I'm sad because there was no concern for the woman, I'm sad because despite my trying to explain that my issue is simply people with penises wanting access to spaces that are for people with vaginas only. Nothing to do with whether they are trans or not (a biological woman who lives as a trans man still accesses a female single sex space). Because it's not a trans issue. It's a male issue. I'm sad because I don't want to have to lie to my DC and say that a man standing in front of me is a woman. I want to be able to say that he is a biological male who chooses to live as a woman. But I want to be able to say that without being labelled transphobic. Because I'm not. There's no judgment. But there is a desire for safeguarding.

Just sad. Feels bonkers. Feels like I'm living in a big game of pretend.

These things probably shouldn't really be discussed on text anyway, but it has just made me sad and concerned.

OP posts:
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Rainbowsandstorms · 19/03/2022 11:21

My personal feelings are that in areas where single sex spaces have been created for the safety of women these need to persist in the name of safety. Trans rights do not trump the need for safe single sex spaces such as changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons etc. I say this as someone who has no judgement around anyone being trans. Somewhere there is a balance between respect and lack of discrimination against trans people while also continuing to protect women. I had this conversation with my husband yesterday and he firmly agreed.

Toseland · 19/03/2022 11:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

TheWeeDonkey · 19/03/2022 11:37

@Whatsnewpussyhat

Every single person that goes along with the absurdity that a man can be a woman is responsible for this bullshit.

A man took a gold medal from a woman who was the fastest female swimmer because his special feelings of ladyness mattered more than her being allowed fair competition. He was allowed to do whatever he fucking wants because he's a man. The second he said, 'I'm a woman', everyone else's brains fell out and must pretend that this privileged, straight, white man is one of the most oppressed people on the fucking planet.

A man raped a woman in hospital and the hospital told police it couldn't have happened because the man said he was a woman. The victim called a liar and gaslit for knowing her rapist was a man.

A serial killer in America who had butchered many women during his life and the headlines all called him a woman.

Apparently 61% of young PEOPLE are embarrassed by their periods and 2 PEOPLE a day die of cervical cancer.
The words women and girls being disconnected from our biology whilst using 'woman' for reporting male serial killers, sex offenders and paedophiles.

Humans cannot change sex. If you think it's ok for women to be forced to validate male identities and step aside whilst men appropriate female oppression, you might want to ask yourself why you are so willing to default to men. Why you think male feelings matter most. Why men who claim to have a 'gender identity' should be pandered to at the expense of an entire sex class?

👏👏👏
Whatsnewpussyhat · 19/03/2022 11:39

Somewhere there is a balance between respect and lack of discrimination against trans people while also continuing to protect women

The comparator for discrimination is sex. It won't work if we are forced to pretend sex can magically change or disappear.
Transmen, being female, are still protected on the basis of their sex. So covered by maternity and pregnancy policies etc.
The comparator for transwomen is other males. So a transwomen couldn't be kicked out of men's facilities or be treated differently from other men just because they are trans.

The only way to uphold women's legal protections is for them to continue to be based on our sex.

They can campaign for 3rd mixed sex, any 'gender' space for those who want it. Female only spaces are for the safety, privacy and dignity of females, not to provide validation for males.

WhyIsEverythingSoHard · 19/03/2022 11:42

There are two issues in the news of the hospital woman.

One is the issue of whether it’s ok to have someone with a penis in a ward full of people with vagina. That’s one thing.

But for me the WORST is the fact that woman reality has been denied and she told she cannot have been raped. She basically was told that she was lying when she reported the rape. Now that is an even bigger problem for me.

Eyesofdisarray · 19/03/2022 11:43

The poor victim- her trauma compounded by gaslighting with a complete and utterly denial of reality. I'm shocked and astounded at the NHS and all who advise them regarding this. Are they so open minded their brain has fallen out??
And it seems it's not an isolated incident.

Hasselhoffsheadband · 19/03/2022 11:43

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie

I absolutely agree that all trans women are being demonised for the sins of a few.

But if you want to find yourself pretty much in an echo chamber of outrage, you're in the right place.

But all men are 'demonised' for the sins of a few and no one thinks that's outrageous?

My DH is a lovely man who has never hurt anyone and is absolutely not a threat to women. Should he be allowed to use a changing room clearly labelled 'female'? If not, why not? What is the difference between him and another male who has self declared that they identify as a woman?

Unless you think that everywhere should just be mixed sex and there should be no women only places at all?

Eyesofdisarray · 19/03/2022 11:43

Utter not utterly
And I thought I'd proof read 🙄

RhymesWithOrange · 19/03/2022 11:49

Don't be sad and disappointed. Be furious. Women are deliberately being put in harms' way for the sake of a regressive ideology being driven by men with either mental health issues or predatory motives. Be angry, not sad.

SmugglersHaunt · 19/03/2022 11:51

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie

I absolutely agree that all trans women are being demonised for the sins of a few.

But if you want to find yourself pretty much in an echo chamber of outrage, you're in the right place.

"The sins of a few" - if those men pretending to be women weren't allowed in women's spaces there wouldn't be any problem. No man should be allowed to be in women's spaces, no matter if he wears a shonky wig and calls himself Trudi.

I didn't sign up to play a part in someone else's pantomime.

TeaAndStrumpets · 19/03/2022 11:56

@Eyesofdisarray

The poor victim- her trauma compounded by gaslighting with a complete and utterly denial of reality. I'm shocked and astounded at the NHS and all who advise them regarding this. Are they so open minded their brain has fallen out?? And it seems it's not an isolated incident.
I would really like Keir Starmer to be asked for a comment on this case.

I have been disappointed and horrified that the TWAW mantra has been so widely endorsed by the Left.

Rainbowshit · 19/03/2022 12:03

I have found the dismissal of women's rights in favour of trans rights to be incredibly dismaying. It's as if the attitude is that men have given the pretty little women these rights, and can just as easily take them away again.

It's so regressive and depressing.

SamphiretheStickerist · 19/03/2022 12:11

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie

I absolutely agree that all trans women are being demonised for the sins of a few.

But if you want to find yourself pretty much in an echo chamber of outrage, you're in the right place.

Not quite. But it is the usual disinformation provided to make the point that women really don't matter to some people.

What is actually happening is that transwomen are being held to the same standard of behaviour as all other men. Nobody bats an eyelid when men are barred from single sex female services. And how, besides the entirely decorative aside of manner of dress etc, do transwomen differ from any other man?

That you acknowledge some transwomen are sex offenders shows you are fully aware that they commit the same sexual offences, at the same rate, as any other man. So, again, what is the difference? Why should women accept the same probability of abuse just because if a self declaration and change in attire?

This isn't an echo chamber. Nor is it anti trans. It is one of the very few online spaces women have to defend the rights and dignity of women. Adult human females.

PearPickingPorky · 19/03/2022 12:33

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie

The appalling rates of conviction for rape in this country are a national shame. But that is not a trans issue; it's a failure of policing and governance.
You're rigjt, it's not a 'trans' issue. It's a male issue, trans status irrelevant.
Marvellousmadness · 19/03/2022 12:48

"Not all men are rapists. However all rapists are men."

Uh...you are living with blinders on if thats what you believe

Rainbowshit · 19/03/2022 12:50

@Marvellousmadness

"Not all men are rapists. However all rapists are men."

Uh...you are living with blinders on if thats what you believe

Rape requires a penis under UK law.
5zeds · 19/03/2022 12:55

@Chasingthebutterflies I'm sad because I don't want to have to lie to my DC and say that a man standing in front of me is a woman. well don’t lie to them.

Rainbowshit · 19/03/2022 12:58

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie

The appalling rates of conviction for rape in this country are a national shame. But that is not a trans issue; it's a failure of policing and governance.
But the case being talked about IS an trans issue as there is a clear conflict between the right of the perpetrator to conceal their sex and the right of the victim to get justice for the appalling attack on her.
titchy · 19/03/2022 12:59

@Marvellousmadness

"Not all men are rapists. However all rapists are men."

Uh...you are living with blinders on if thats what you believe

What other category of people can commit rape then? Confused
SamphiretheStickerist · 19/03/2022 13:15

Be prepared to be shown men who identify as women being hailed as female rapists. There have been a few of those very recently.

Makes it really hard to see how many, if any, women have been charged. It is possible, in vanishingly rare and very specific circumstances.

But that's all that counts, it seems. One, maybe two women in the last gid knows how many years, have been charged, as instigating accomplice, with the man bearing the necessary penis. And there you go. Bingo bango women commit rape!

ToCaden · 19/03/2022 13:16

Women can (I do agree it happens less than men, but does happen.)

The UK definition of rape is penatration of a anus or vagina by penis or another object.

ToCaden · 19/03/2022 13:18

Gah. My post was in response to titchy for those confused. Quote didn't work.

LizDoingTheCanCan · 19/03/2022 13:22

If you don't like being called transphobic, then perhaps you should consider your views. You're no different from the people that spread hate and fear against gay people in the 80s, using your twisted interpretation of facts to demonise people who are different from you.

We're far stronger united than we are divided. Please think about what you are trying to achieve.

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 19/03/2022 13:23

@LizDoingTheCanCan

If you don't like being called transphobic, then perhaps you should consider your views. You're no different from the people that spread hate and fear against gay people in the 80s, using your twisted interpretation of facts to demonise people who are different from you.

We're far stronger united than we are divided. Please think about what you are trying to achieve.

This.
LizDoingTheCanCan · 19/03/2022 13:23

(And the hospital rape case is abhorrent. But stereotyping a whole group based on the actions of one person, that's hateful.)