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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 3

999 replies

Whatamesssss · 17/03/2022 16:43

Thread one, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Thread two, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4505825-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-2?pg=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
WearyLady · 20/03/2022 18:04

I'd love to know what questions the police asked and more importantly, who they asked them of. The excuse that they were mislead by NHS staff suggests to me that the investigation wasn't very far reaching. One would at least expect them to speak to other people on the ward in which case certain 'irregularities' may have come to light. I may be being uncharitable here, but this looks to me to be part of a wider issue, namely a reluctance on the part of the police to take rape claims seriously and investigate them properly.

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 20/03/2022 18:09

Olivia Dobbie has an impressive CV. I read that she herself is a part-time employment tribunal judge, if memory serves.

Masdintle · 20/03/2022 18:15

I think there will be a few days in April where it will be like the Iceland women's strike - everybody's taking leave to hear Ben Cooper take on Stonewall Grin

Twitterwhooooo · 20/03/2022 18:32

Oh goodness me, yes.

They must be QUAKING.

They sent several complaints into Allison Bailey's place of work and told them that she was an evil, hate-mongering terf (paraphrasing), based on her raising concerns about Stonewall's diversity scheme, being one of the founders of the LGB Alliance and tweeting such atrocities as 'men shouldn't be permitted to be in women's prisons or hospital wards'.

allisonbailey.co.uk/

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 20/03/2022 18:49

@SpinningTheSeedsOfLove

Olivia Dobbie has an impressive CV. I read that she herself is a part-time employment tribunal judge, if memory serves.
OD has an authoritative presence on video conference calls (setting aside the lack of use of noise cancelling software to suppress the typing: this is such an easy fix that it's irritating that she doesn't do this because of the impact on the gallery order).

A quick Google confirms that she serves as a part-time ET judge.

I don't think anybody here doubts OD's competence. I think OD's slight missteps in re: the misgendering of Claire and inappropriate use of pronouns was highlighted as an instance of the difficulties in this area.

Blogblogblogblog · 20/03/2022 19:12

A few pages back there is a link to a Medium article by FM
I have tried to work out what she means by this graphic. I think what she means is that her methods go further than the first 2 pictures we are used to seeing. In that she is breaking down all equality barriers around everyone so everyone is equal (as the 3rd and 4th picture show the people at equal height). The problem with this is that people can’t change height - that’s biologically impossible to have equality.

For example, I noticed in one of the internal emails there was talk of changing the toilets to mixed sexed (it sounded like an ‘appeasement’ measure tbh). If you look at the boxes being toilet cubicles, as women need more toilets for periods/sitting down etc, and equality being time waiting for the toilet, you can see this means her nirvana is letting everyone have access to everyone’s toilets because person is homogeneous with the same needs and concerns. Is that correct?

Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 3
NecessaryScene · 20/03/2022 19:26

this means her nirvana is letting everyone have access to everyone’s toilets because person is homogeneous with the same needs and concerns. Is that correct?

This is the sort of thing that JCJ goes on about - here's her latest Twitter thread on the theme, responding to that dumb 20-Tweet "women's sport as a radically inclusive space" thread.

We're not 'innately physically inferior.' That's a value judgement.

But we don't have the same muscle strength. That's a fact.

Patriarchy valued areas of physical ability that conform to male strengths, and devalued areas of physical ability that conform to female strengths.

You don't undo that by denying physiological facts (that makes you look bonkers), you undo it by challenging the value hierarchy.

So so so much of this mess is because people are so conditioned by hierarchical patriarchal thinking that they simply cannot conceive difference that is not structured as hierarchy.

They simply cannot conceive 'equality' that is not imagined as 'sameness.' And in which 'equality' will always end up meaning 'the same as the default male.'

This is how liberal, often American, equality feminism ended up thinking that the freedom of female people could only be ultimately secured by pretending female people did not exist at all.

As if erasing yourself en masse was the true path to liberation 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

Blogblogblogblog · 20/03/2022 19:45

So in order to achieve her ‘liberation’ stage in the case of toilets:
Women wouldn’t have periods.
Men as a group stop sexually offending by over 90% so the risk factor is the same and women feel safer.
Men have to sit down for a wee so toilets are kept cleaner.
Men and women aren't embarrass to make toilet noises around the opposite sex anymore.
Certain religious groups change their rules on men and women having separate facilities.

Good luck with reaching liberation!

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/03/2022 19:59

@battymaggot

This is magnificent. It's MN at it's peak n I'm so proud of what's in these threads. I want to add my thanks to everyone who has brought this out here. Above all Maya, what can I add? You have done women a huge service. You have shown courage, respect and every type of strength, intellectual, moral etc etc. All of which have been absent in the behaviour of CGD et al. They should each and every one of them hang their heads in shame. I doubt they will. They all seem as thick as mince. And utter moral cowards. Think Tank - no thank you. Maya all thanks to you.
Such a great comment. Flowers
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 20/03/2022 20:10

They all seem as thick as mince

They're not: they are very smart people.

They're not being scrutinised for their subject matter expertise or professional knowledge. I would have expected better of the people whose primary function is in HR and resource management.

I'm disappointed in the outcome of the perspectives held by some of the staff members and the degree of influence exercises by people who will not appear for the respondents. I feel these emotions and perspectives have led to errors of judgment that these people are unlikely to have made in other contexts (such as accepting the QI report).

BIWI · 20/03/2022 21:12

I think the worrying thing is that they aren't thick as mince. Yet still they adopt/believe the trans ideology.

I also find it hard to countenance that they had to bring in external consultants on - what seems to me - such a straightforward fact: people cannot change their biological sex, and to assert such is wrong.

BIWI · 20/03/2022 21:14

@MForstater I am in awe of your fortitude. As someone who was managed out of a job (career, let's be honest), I didn't have anywhere near the courage or fortitude that you have displayed.

Redshoeblueshoe · 20/03/2022 21:58

Does anyone know the timetable for this week ?

nauticant · 20/03/2022 22:24

I was wondering the same. I plan to be out and about and would like to minimise what I miss. I'm hoping that the first item of business when proceedings resume tomorrow (10am?) is that the judge will discuss with the barristers the time they need to complete the examination of MA and then each close the submissions on their cases. Unless there will be new witnesses or returning to examine those who have already given evidence.

MForstater · 20/03/2022 23:20

Starting again at 10 am tomorrow. Ben said on Friday he had about 90mins more for Masood. Then any final questions from the panel and re-examination by Dobbie.

Then they will break - the judge has something else on in the afternoon.

Tuesday closing submissions by the two lawyers.

Redshoeblueshoe · 20/03/2022 23:26

Thank you Maya Flowers

MForstater · 20/03/2022 23:34

On Owen (someone asked). Yes he has his tweets on auto delete and is on a Twitter break.

He has over the past three years quite valiantly tried to slay (or at least stem the spread) of the myth that I harassed a colleague, by popping up on Twitter and correcting people when they say this.

(For which I am grateful)

mforstater.medium.com/five-myths-and-truths-about-my-case-8466d69f9489

Redshoeblueshoe · 20/03/2022 23:44

Now for the really important questions Maya - who should play you in Maya the Musical ? Alex Kingston has been suggested, along with Damien Lewis to play Ben.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 20/03/2022 23:45

[quote MForstater]On Owen (someone asked). Yes he has his tweets on auto delete and is on a Twitter break.

He has over the past three years quite valiantly tried to slay (or at least stem the spread) of the myth that I harassed a colleague, by popping up on Twitter and correcting people when they say this.

(For which I am grateful)

mforstater.medium.com/five-myths-and-truths-about-my-case-8466d69f9489[/quote]
I'm relieved to read that Maya as I've heard Owen Barder speak a few times and admired his work.

I liked the acknowledgement during some exchanges during Mark Plant's (?) testimony that although Owen disagreed with you on this matter he was supportive of you in general because that's my impression of his intellectual standards and his recognition of it in others.

YetAnotherWalk · 21/03/2022 06:34

Good luck @MForstater You and your team have been an inspiration.

HardyBuckette · 21/03/2022 07:56

I know this has been posted before, but to get a login I just have to email the Tribunal right? Does anyone have the address to hand?

nauticant · 21/03/2022 08:05

See here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4507443-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-3?msgid=115948760

You don't need to provide a reason, simply mention it's for Forstater vs CGD and request access to watch the case.

Whatamesssss · 21/03/2022 08:13

@MForstater

Starting again at 10 am tomorrow. Ben said on Friday he had about 90mins more for Masood. Then any final questions from the panel and re-examination by Dobbie.

Then they will break - the judge has something else on in the afternoon.

Tuesday closing submissions by the two lawyers.

Just highlighting
OP posts:
HardyBuckette · 21/03/2022 08:18

@nauticant

See here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4507443-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-3?msgid=115948760

You don't need to provide a reason, simply mention it's for Forstater vs CGD and request access to watch the case.

Cheers
MayaWasSackedForGCBeliefs · 21/03/2022 08:54

Argh I have 2 appointments this morning so I'll be relying on this thread and TT. I'll be back on the live link for tomorrow's closing arguments.