Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 3

[Whatamesssss]

Thread one, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Thread two, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4505825-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-2?pg=1

She does seem good. I love her hair as well.

@Iknowitisheresomewhere

The decision is appealable but only on a point of law.

When will we get the decision - the judge may give an indication but there is no hard deadline.

The grounds for appeal are broader than that. You can appeal because the tribunal:

• got the law wrong
• didn't apply the correct law
• didn't follow the correct procedure and this affected the decision
• made a decision that is not supported by any evidence
• was unfairly biased

You cannot appeal just because you disagree with the decision. An appeal is not a rehearing of the case. However, whilst points of law are the strongest appeals, they are not the only appeals possible.

I like that analogy too (as religious ones get a bit bogged down eg catholic or traditional jewish schools not employment someone who is living in sin or not of the faith - there is a lto of case law and separate legal rules about things like NHS Catholic doctors not being obliged to do abortions etc which just muddies the waters in the trans area where we are really talking about fact v. pie in the sky - in that MF has in a sense truth on her side and everyone is wanting to force people to peddle that the earth is flat)

If it's 8 weeks, will we be deep into BC, PD and AP's next action in re: Allison Bailey before we hear (or even longer)?

So if she loses based on them saying her FPFW leaflet was beyond the political pale, given that our actual government has rejected self-ID for the reasons to which the leaflet refers, that might be an argument for appeal? Even if in 2018 they thought it was some big disgrace, it now reflects government policy.

Thanks for these clarifications on appeal grounds, appreciated.

Everyone has a date of birth, so everyone has a star sign, right? And that star sign says they have certain characteristics inherent to them because of their date of birth.

And if you don't match the characteristics of your star sign, it's not because those labels are wrong, it's because your date of birth is wrong, and you should've been born on a different date that reflects who you truly are as a person.

Does anyone know, will the judgement have to set out reasoning and come to a conclusion on all the legal arguments? For example if they decide her relationship with cgd was not caught by the EA, and therefore she loses, will the judgement stop there? Or will they also consider everything else - was it about the core belief or expression of it? Was their hr process fair? Etc etc. It won't make any difference to whether she has won or lost, but we won't learn much if they don't set out reasoning on the beliefs/expression issue, and it would make it difficult to know whether to appeal.

Thank you everyone!

Can I ask a favour?

Is it possible to compile all the transcript posts into a Google Doc (or similar) ?

I will put on my website and try to do a best/most complete single version from the tweets and Mumsnet posts (for future playwrights, musical theatre, history what hat you...)

Hi @MForstater I hope you are bearing up OK. This whole thing must be exhausting.
Do your legal team have a feel for how this is going at this stage?

@MForstater I'll do it, it's probably easiest for me (it'll take a bit of a while!). Well done.

Disclaimer that it isn't precise!

Tabby, you are a superstar! Thanks to you and everyone else for helping the likes of me follow this!

@MForstater

Thank you everyone!

Can I ask a favour?

Is it possible to compile all the transcript posts into a Google Doc (or similar) ?

I will put on my website and try to do a best/most complete single version from the tweets and Mumsnet posts (for future playwrights, musical theatre, history what hat you...)

Just highlighting

Waiting with baited breath for Sex Matters: The Musical!

To Maya: It must be gruelling but what amazing work you have done. Thank you. I know of several young women who, whilst they are still not brave enough to say it, have listened and realised you are speaking for them too.

@PrelateChuckles

Everyone has a date of birth, so everyone has a star sign, right? And that star sign says they have certain characteristics inherent to them because of their date of birth.

And if you don't match the characteristics of your star sign, it's not because those labels are wrong, it's because your date of birth is wrong, and you should've been born on a different date that reflects who you truly are as a person.

I am really appreciating this analogy more and more.

We need a new thread soon.
Maya

I was born really premature; I'm pleased to see that not accepting the horoscope assigned to me at birth is a valid choice

@PrelateChuckles

Everyone has a date of birth, so everyone has a star sign, right? And that star sign says they have certain characteristics inherent to them because of their date of birth.

And if you don't match the characteristics of your star sign, it's not because those labels are wrong, it's because your date of birth is wrong, and you should've been born on a different date that reflects who you truly are as a person.

And everybody should henceforth treat you as if you were born on the other date even if that may affect the date on which age restrictions start or cease to apply to you.

New thread here when this one fills up.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4510482-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-4

Have the times been decided for each side to sum up tomorrow?

Yes, it's so bloody male centric and convenient, isn't it, that women's views that are 'unwelcome', are so offensive they can't actually be heard. And he doesn't see anything glaringly misogynistic about that. He thinks it's completely normal.

But sadly it's not surprising. I have a male acquaintance who would pride himself on his liberal values and who has shut down discussion by women (including me) because he genuinely thinks he has the right to do so and he has the entitlement to tell us why we're 'wrong'. The idea that he - a man - should not tell women how to feel about that which affects and relates to women appears to escape him. The sheer fucking arrogance boils my piss.

@JustWaking

Have the times been decided for each side to sum up tomorrow?

2pm for Oral sum up.

@Manderleyagain

Does anyone know, will the judgement have to set out reasoning and come to a conclusion on all the legal arguments? For example if they decide her relationship with cgd was not caught by the EA, and therefore she loses, will the judgement stop there? Or will they also consider everything else - was it about the core belief or expression of it? Was their hr process fair? Etc etc. It won't make any difference to whether she has won or lost, but we won't learn much if they don't set out reasoning on the beliefs/expression issue, and it would make it difficult to know whether to appeal.

I haven't worked in the law for 10 years, but in the ET case I worked on, the judgements were really long and detailed. And the cases I worked on were MUCH more straightforward than this. What I remember most is the judge went through the claimant and witnesses evidence, made a decision who's evidence was credible and why, which parts were not credible etc. So it feels like there is plenty the judge could say about credibility! He has to address all the points in Maya's claim, whether she has met the burden of proof, if not, why not. Im not sure whether he has to address all the points in defence, because it's Maya's case to prove. Thank you Maya, you are a true inspiration. Tabby you are a legend! I've really enjoyed the wise, incisive and hilarious commentary, thank you all.