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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 3

999 replies

Whatamesssss · 17/03/2022 16:43

Thread one, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Thread two, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4505825-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-2?pg=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
OvaHere · 20/03/2022 11:49

Could they be waiting until the tribunal is over or even for the judgement?

It was reported that many media outlets and journos were logged in and watching. Presumably most intend to write about it at some point.

WearyLady · 20/03/2022 11:55

It's good to see that at least the citizens of Darlington and Stockton are being made aware of what's going on. Smile

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 20/03/2022 11:58

@OvaHere

Could they be waiting until the tribunal is over or even for the judgement?

It was reported that many media outlets and journos were logged in and watching. Presumably most intend to write about it at some point.

Maybe. I can't get past that the actual existence of this action says a lot about the way law is changing.

It'a a crowdfunded action that had to go to appeal. It's garnering a sizeable number of public observers. It's addressing core issues that were anticipated in the HoL debates before the passing of GRA 2004.

I'd have thought those aspects of the story were worth covering even if publishers were shy of the content of the case. Frivolously, I'd even think the possibility of combining near time animations with some of the dialogue is worth a story from technology or communications people. Or for legal commentators who want to energise an interest in law and drive greater involvement in its processes.

PermanentTemporary · 20/03/2022 12:01

Something to say before OD gets going this week.

A QC who acted for Maya's opponents in the past reports that she got various forms of abuse at the time. I know someone who knows her and I believe it. I was angry about that idea. Lawyers do a job and don't deserve abuse for it either.

battymaggot · 20/03/2022 12:04

This is magnificent. It's MN at it's peak n I'm so proud of what's in these threads. I want to add my thanks to everyone who has brought this out here. Above all Maya, what can I add? You have done women a huge service. You have shown courage, respect and every type of strength, intellectual, moral etc etc. All of which have been absent in the behaviour of CGD et al. They should each and every one of them hang their heads in shame. I doubt they will. They all seem as thick as mince. And utter moral cowards. Think Tank - no thank you. Maya all thanks to you.

Datun · 20/03/2022 12:13

Maybe the press think the better story would be once the case is over.

If maya wins, they can go to town on the ludicrousness of it all. And if she loses, they can go to town on the outrage.

The final chapter could shape the story quite significantly.

Plus, other things are happening, too. The cancelling of Hilary cass. Liz Truss wanting to stop the pronouns nonsense.

It could be rather full on.

GinPalace2 · 20/03/2022 12:18

I thought press reporting was not recommended whilst an ET is ongoing or is that just criminal cases?

I was expecting the press coverage to be once the judgment is received.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2022 12:20

Maybe the press think the better story would be once the case is over.

If maya wins, they can go to town on the ludicrousness of it all. And if she loses, they can go to town on the outrage.

The final chapter could shape the story quite significantly.

That's what I was thinking.

DingaLangLangCleg · 20/03/2022 12:39

@Pixiedust1234

Once again, thank you all for posting what is happening Flowers
Part of the Tribunal Tweets team here. No, not allowed to record. Done live from watching the proceedings on line. We are looking for further volunteers to tweet - find me on Twitter - @justabaker17
Iknowitisheresomewhere · 20/03/2022 12:40

@PermanentTemporary

Something to say before OD gets going this week.

A QC who acted for Maya's opponents in the past reports that she got various forms of abuse at the time. I know someone who knows her and I believe it. I was angry about that idea. Lawyers do a job and don't deserve abuse for it either.

Agreed. Justice needs good lawyers on both sides. Just as facts are working (imo) for Ben, they are working against her. We shouldn’t assume she agrees with the case she is putting.

We want a case where both sides give it the best they have got. Sunlight is good!

Redshoeblueshoe · 20/03/2022 13:22

Sonia Sohda has mentioned it on Twitter - I'm sure she will do an excellent article when it's over.
Dingalang thanks for tweeting.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 20/03/2022 13:39

tbh, I'd hope it isn't necessary to state that, to restyle the discussion of EM, I am completely intransigent and utterly implacable on the abuse of anybody who is doing their job.

I am keen to consider a steelmanning of gender identity ideology that doesn't rely on #BeKind or the experience of supporting a colleague/friend/family member as a thought terminating cliché.

Actively promoting diversity and inclusion was to garner a greater range of knowledge and experience and bring it to bear in the workplace and the output. How on earth has it become an ideological project that is associated with limiting language, confining thought, forbidding discussion, and restricting evidence to a procrustean bed.

The #ForstaterChallenge has laid bare the ideological aphasia that is being enforced in so many settings. I've been thinking about the naked and unabashed cruelty of the NHS CCTV story and what is reported as the hospital's obfuscation because there doesn't seem to have been any way for the police to obtain a truthful answer from the Trust because the Trust was prepared to weasel word their way through ignoring the fact finding intention of the police enquiries. The Forstater Challenge (as opposed to the Staniland Question) is this: What form of words would someone have to use to establish the truth of a matter when making relevant enquiries?

NecessaryScene · 20/03/2022 13:58

How on earth has it become an ideological project that is associated with limiting language, confining thought, forbidding discussion, and restricting evidence to a procrustean bed.

In the long term, form follows function. If something isn't good at its function it has to adapt. So anything that is long-term successful must, by elimination, have a form well-suited to its function.

In the short term, function follows form. Given a set of rules or incentives, behaviour inevitably follows - favouring short-term advantage. If that short-term advantaged behaviour is not consistent with long-term survival, the form may not survive.

In this case, the form of "DEI" is a middle-management/NGO-type layer that gets to tell everyone else what they're doing wrong. And that "tell everyone else what they're doing wrong" is the key feature. Of course that is going to attract a very particular sort of personality and lead inevitably to purity spirals as they police each other. Regardless of what the original intent was.

James Lindsay has a saying "the Woke slope is always slippery". Basically, they can't leave anything on the table. If someone doesn't declare something as problematic, someone else will, and they will then claim they're better than the people who didn't say it was problematic.

Another way to put this is that Wokeness (or, the various Theories of Critical Social Justice) has no brakes. There’s nothing to stop a Woke train once it starts running. The reasons are not bugs of the Theoretical worldview but are, in fact, features of how Theory operates methodologically. All the way back to Hegel, any idea that could still be hit with the dialectic must be hit with the dialectic; any problematic that isn’t critiqued leaves the status quo intact; any social construction that isn’t deconstructed maintains the possibility for oppressive systems of power.

This particular form is effectively a virus or cancer - it's great for its participants, but the surrounding society can't really survive it. It has to be contained.

PrelateChuckles · 20/03/2022 14:09

@BenCooperisaGod

We are so very lucky to have Maya. Not only because she has the courage to do this, but because she has been so disciplined in how she has expresses her beliefs. She has never lost her cool, never been disrespectful, been pin point accurate in her choice of words. The worst they have been able to throw at her is "nonsense on stilts" (it was) "part time cross dresser" (he is and refers to himself as such" and "mens feelings have no basis is reality" (she didn't say that, she said material reality, and feelings by definition are intangible, they have no physical manifestation).

All they have left is to scold her about her "tone", which is clearly misogynistic.

This is very true and worth bearing in mind.
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 20/03/2022 14:30

As a matter of interest, does Owen Barder operate an auto-delete on Twitter? (Barder is a former VP of CGD Europe and crops up at several points in the case as a senior person although he's not a respondent. He and MF are styled as have disagreements on this issue and he is said to have supported her consideration as a Senior Fellow.)

There are no tweets on his timeline at all. I thought he'd have useful things to say about Ukraine and the humanitarian issues it poses so I went to look and there's nothing there at all.

Xenia · 20/03/2022 14:32

Most main stream newspapers would report a tribunal case at the end although some cases such as where the FT follows fraud etc trials will report what is said in the court on some days when it is more interesting than the rest of it for these very long trials, but not allow comment on it (I think) until the case is over.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2022 14:36

This particular form is effectively a virus or cancer - it's great for its participants, but the surrounding society can't really survive it. It has to be contained.

It's unsurprising that someone like Richard Dawkins sees through it, as the person who coined "meme theory" and the idea of religion being a "mind virus".

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 20/03/2022 16:18

I can't find my old paperback copy of the Selfish Gene but I do remember Richard Dawkins first theorising about 'memes' and their reproduction and spread in the world. It was pretty affecting to read as a student in the late 1970s/early 1980s, coming from the religious upbringing that I had endured.

McDuffy · 20/03/2022 16:36

Good post, NecessaryScene, very thought-provoking, thanks

WearyLady · 20/03/2022 17:01

What form of words would someone have to use to establish the truth of a matter when making relevant enquiries?

In the case of the hospital enquiry: 'Does anyone on this ward have a penis'?

ShagMeRiggins · 20/03/2022 17:03

@WearyLady

I agree totally about Maya's intellectual abilities. I wondered though if her credentials were being questioned on Friday when Olivia Dobson (CGD QC) asked Masood Ahmed whether they'd ever before hired someone without postgraduate qualifications.
Ah. Because, obviously, official qualifications are everything and the only things that matter. Ha ha ha ha ha!

Apologies. I respect qualifications—they require work to achieve. But do we really live in a world, where examples abound of greatness and huge intelligence without qualifications, where employers are still following the letters after a name, a CV-only world?

Such an example of dronery.

ShagMeRiggins · 20/03/2022 17:20

@PermanentTemporary

Something to say before OD gets going this week.

A QC who acted for Maya's opponents in the past reports that she got various forms of abuse at the time. I know someone who knows her and I believe it. I was angry about that idea. Lawyers do a job and don't deserve abuse for it either.

I hope no one here hurls abuse at OD. There might be the occasional mocking of her questions, but I’ve yet to see anyone—here—tell her they hope she dies in a grease fire, threaten to rape her, or report her to her employers/police for sexist abuse or hate crime.

Your caution is noted. I believe it has been and will be respected on this forum.

From what I’ve seen/read (online only) of OD, she’s clearly a competent barrister (solicitor, lawyer, silk—gawd, I’m not from this country and y’all have so many fecking names for who’s allowed to do what) who specialises in employment law.

I wish her well, and hope she loses this case.

Whatamesssss · 20/03/2022 17:22

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Maya's comment this morning.

This is the sum total of newspaper coverage of my case so far. [Screenshot of Darlington and Stockton Times a week ago]

I trust the dam will break at some point.

In the meantime, for all the news and analysis that's not fit to print: visit Mumsnet

mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4507443-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-3

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1505445879154683904

Meanwhile, there's a musical, animations and discussion here.

I have to wonder if CGD was banking on the lack of coverage because it's similar to ET1.

Just highlighting
OP posts:
ShagMeRiggins · 20/03/2022 17:36

@PermanentTemporary

Something to say before OD gets going this week.

A QC who acted for Maya's opponents in the past reports that she got various forms of abuse at the time. I know someone who knows her and I believe it. I was angry about that idea. Lawyers do a job and don't deserve abuse for it either.

Meant to ask—from whom did this person receive abuse?

Was it online, was it from colleagues…?

Also curious about the form(s) of the abuse.

Of course lawyers have a job to do. They shouldn’t be abused for it any more than anyone else carrying out a job that might be unpleasant to some—traffic warden, call centre employee, CEO, GP receptionist, elite tennis player, social services worker, etc.

MF has received a load of abuse. All she did was her job, and stand up for her rights.

People often abuse the employee/face of a system, when their anger is at the system.

In the MF case, on this board particularly, the anger isn’t necessarily personally directed at OD, it is more about the passion and rationale of the case and topic.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 20/03/2022 17:54

@WearyLady

What form of words would someone have to use to establish the truth of a matter when making relevant enquiries?

In the case of the hospital enquiry: 'Does anyone on this ward have a penis'?

I'm apprehensive that the answer to that would be:

—No. (Covers a multitude of motivations.)
—We have consulted the records for those on the ward at the time and there are no markers to indicate that would be true.
—We're not answering that question as it would be a violation of the privacy of those on the ward or who visited/worked on the ward.

Perhaps it would be useful to know:
—what questions the police asked and when
—what the motivation/intention of any NHS responses were and who is accountable for those responses if they dissembled.

However, I'll stop speculating here because this is about MF's sincere attempts to address these issues in her workplace and the inherent difficulties when her colleagues
—denied its relevance to their work
—were unwilling to discuss a form of words that would allow them to identify and articulate the issue.

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