Guess what? Women hate gender neutral toilets...

[SunniDelite]

Report in a couple of papers this morning...
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10536737/West-End-drama-gender-neutral-toilets-Theatregoers-blast-gross-restrooms.html
I might have gone (if the tickets hadn't been so expensive) but I shall certainly make a note to avoid this theatre in the future...

Watching Mamma Mia in the West End in about 2008 there was a terrible queue for the loos and no men at all in the audience so I bolted with my daughter into the empty men's, into a cubicle. It was horrible - the smell was disgusting - bolted back out again.
Never, ever going to a theatre with mixed sex loos.
But Somerset House have mixed sex because the doors go up to the ceiling and each cubicle has a mirror and basin - you still couldn't let a child go in there alone. Did they even think this through or are they just bots following instructions from S*wall???

@floralembroidery

Well, I have tickets for the theatre in question (bought months ago!) - tickets for Cabaret are like gold dust so no way am I giving mine up and no way the theatre will be affected by a boycott for this show as they could sell them 10 times over.

Depressing to hear I won't be able to go to the loo all night - hoping I don't have a Crohns flare up on the day.

Guess it will provide an excellent opportunity for me to peak waiting women though.

In every cloud etc...

I suggest you take some Post-its and a pen. Just find out which loos have the urinals and put a men's sign on them. And vice versa.

I'd thank you.

@Janesmom

Provided they have the same number of loos, that’s more for women to use. I have rarely seen men queuing for the loo.

Mens loos usually have one or two cubicles and many urinals. They dont have queues because mostly they piss and go, via only having to pull a zip down. Womens will generally have one more cubicle than the mens maybe two. When women go with or without children, on or not on a period, we have to do more, hence queues. So your theory that we will, have more cubicles to use, at most two, wont make much difference and the renamed ladies will now have men in the queue too. And of course we are going to need yet more time to wipe every seat first because no doubt a man will have pissed on it first.

And now I've written queue far too many times and it feels wrong.

@floralembroidery You might want to email them again.
Saw a show there recently at bridge theatre and they've got that gender neutral arrows symbol up everywhere.

There are no disabilities or cultural reasons for single sex loos.

You've not heard of rape culture then.

And thanks for being the spokesman for disabled people, I'll be sure to bear you in mind when standing at a urinal with my vision problems trying to empty my moon cup.

I just complained to a museum in Scotland (being deliberately vague) about this very thing! The two toilet facilities had been named gender neutral but were clearly just the old men's and women's with no changes made. My DH was not impressed with the idea that women could come in at any time, I asked him abut the layout and he confirmed that to get to the cubicle you had to walk past the urinals.

I am sure that most women will avoid the toilet with urinals, so the affect will be that men will retain their privacy but women will not.

Progress apparently! Also unimpressed by the calibre of the counter argument, just flat out denial? Easy to refute, try harder guys!

Effect

I'm a disabled women who wouldn't want to share a toilet space with a man for lots of reasons but thanks that poster speaking up for me ,

@Goldshelfie

I just complained to a museum in Scotland (being deliberately vague) about this very thing! The two toilet facilities had been named gender neutral but were clearly just the old men's and women's with no changes made. My DH was not impressed with the idea that women could come in at any time, I asked him abut the layout and he confirmed that to get to the cubicle you had to walk past the urinals.

I am sure that most women will avoid the toilet with urinals, so the affect will be that men will retain their privacy but women will not.

Progress apparently! Also unimpressed by the calibre of the counter argument, just flat out denial? Easy to refute, try harder guys!

I've had this same situation at my local Curzon cinema - I complained about it and they told me that it's temporary and because of Covid - I haven't been back (this was a few months ago) so we will see. I can happily skip going to the cinema if they haven't changed it back or provided 3 options. Mens/Womens/Everyone&babychanging

One of my specialist subjects used to be toilet provision in theatres. Women make up more than 50% of theatre audiences and take longer to use toilets. There are less men, and they are quicker, and urinals take up less space than cubicles. As a result, there are actual guidelines and calculations used by architects/planners for an optimum theatre toilet provision, which (a few years ago) would result in new theatres/ major theatre renovations always resulting in many more ladies loos. I'm not working in this area now, but what seems to be happening is that some new theatres are being built with a mixture of gender neutral loos , male loos and female loos. Hopefully they've done the calculations and worked out that this sort of mixture still allows for enough female loos. The problem seems to be with those, like the Playhouse, who basically re-assign existing loos without thinking through the consequences.

IIRC, Tanni Grey-Thompson made a speech in the Lords detailing how mixed-sex toilets would potentially make disabled women even more vulnerable. She mentioned, for example, wheelchair-users not always being able to close, never mind lock, cubicle doors.

I need more stickers......

@Dutch1e

There are no disabilities or cultural reasons for single sex loos.

You've not heard of rape culture then.

And thanks for being the spokesman for disabled people, I'll be sure to bear you in mind when standing at a urinal with my vision problems trying to empty my moon cup.

I have heard the term bandied about, but no one has ever been able to explain the relevance in the uk. I could understand if we were refering to one of the gulf states but i dont think it applies as it were culturally over here. Ive certainly never felt that our culture promotes rape nor does any one i know. Quite the opposite. I dont know a single person that dorsnt think its an aborrebt crime!

If this is the way things are moving then as uncomfortable as I’ll find queueing in the gents for the cubicle then I’ll do it

Because if women just suck up the bigger queues and the men are never put out then it’ll never change

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

If this is the way things are moving then as uncomfortable as I’ll find queueing in the gents for the cubicle then I’ll do it

Because if women just suck up the bigger queues and the men are never put out then it’ll never change

I would be quite happy to pull down my pants and squat in the urinals. I would feign ignorance. If enough women did that there would soon be a sea change....

@Kimilybob

'What is rape culture?

When attitudes, behaviours and beliefs in society have the effect of normalising and trivialising sexual violence. This culture includes misogyny, rape jokes, sexual harassment, online sexual abuse (upskirting, non-consensual sharing of intimate photos, cyberflashing), and sexual coercion. When behaviours such as these are normalised this can act as a gateway to more extreme acts such as sexual assault and rape.' (Quote from the Everyone's Invited website).

www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/world/europe/schools-uk-rape-culture.html

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/29/research-reveals-rapes-and-assaults-admitted-to-by-male-uk-students

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/23/fewer-than-one-in-60-cases-lead-to-charge-in-england-and-wales

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48095118

From the above article - 'Victims' commissionerDame Vera Baird said in her annual reportthat the level of prosecutions has got so low that "what we are witnessing is the de-criminalisation of rape".'

I would be quite happy to pull down my pants and squat in the urinals

I am not 100%sure that I’m limber enough

But id give it a good go

(Dd had a bucket list when she was about 14 and one of the things was weeing in a urinal…shes ticked that one off)

I might not be limber enough either but as my husband will be in there with me he can help me up!!!!

[quote Waitwhat23]@Kimilybob

'What is rape culture?

When attitudes, behaviours and beliefs in society have the effect of normalising and trivialising sexual violence. This culture includes misogyny, rape jokes, sexual harassment, online sexual abuse (upskirting, non-consensual sharing of intimate photos, cyberflashing), and sexual coercion. When behaviours such as these are normalised this can act as a gateway to more extreme acts such as sexual assault and rape.' (Quote from the Everyone's Invited website).

www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/world/europe/schools-uk-rape-culture.html

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/29/research-reveals-rapes-and-assaults-admitted-to-by-male-uk-students

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/23/fewer-than-one-in-60-cases-lead-to-charge-in-england-and-wales

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48095118

From the above article - 'Victims' commissionerDame Vera Baird said in her annual reportthat the level of prosecutions has got so low that "what we are witnessing is the de-criminalisation of rape".'[/quote]
This is not my experience of living here. Im sorry, i just dont think the general attitude in our culture is that rape shoukd be encouraged!
This is backed by the fact we have a max life sentance for rape. Hell, even the prison population hate rapists so to claim its cultural is absurd imo.
The fact that people tell jokes is here nor there...for tge very reason,jokes are jokes, not an idication that tge subject matter is in any way funny. For exampke a joke about someone being murdered dorsnt mean the person telling it thinks murder is ok or funny per se, that would just be infantile logic.

The fact rape convictions have dropped could also point to less occurance.

None of this convinces me in the slightest that we live in a culture of rape.

Im very proud of our culture and heritage and although its not ideal im thankful every day that i live in such a safe country.

www.theguardian.com/law/2021/aug/19/sentences-for-violent-and-sexual-crimes-fall-sharply-in-england-and-wales

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/04/highest-ever-number-of-rapes-recorded-in-england-and-wales

@Kimilybob
Ive certainly never felt that our culture promotes rape

It's not doing a particularly great job of demoting it, though - is it?

Admittedly we haven't sunk to the depths of Ireland where a priest shook the hand of a convicted rapist as he went in for sentencing and made insinuations that the victim got what she deserved (on account of her being a single mother). But British lawyers have done the 'holding up her underwear' trick, just like Irish ones have.

From the Guardian last year:
While there were 52,210 rapes recorded by police in England and Wales in 2020, only 843 resulted in a charge or a summons – a rate of 1.6%.

I dont know what youre gaurdian articles are meant to show. Even if its the highest numbers (although no time frame is apparent) that number is less than 0.02% of the population per annum.
Rape is abhorent, but i think you detract away from it when you say we have a rape culture, when the truth is we've gone further than nearly any other country to provide women opportunities and erase harmful behaviours.

By the way rape is prosecuted as much as is possible, similar to other crimes. Our legal system is pretty much the best there is because its fair. That should NEVER be changed to favor ANY group EVER.

[quote DdraigGoch]@Kimilybob
Ive certainly never felt that our culture promotes rape

It's not doing a particularly great job of demoting it, though - is it?

Admittedly we haven't sunk to the depths of Ireland where a priest shook the hand of a convicted rapist as he went in for sentencing and made insinuations that the victim got what she deserved (on account of her being a single mother). But British lawyers have done the 'holding up her underwear' trick, just like Irish ones have.[/quote]
Accused people should always have the right to cross examine the accuser. Some on here seem to think the legal system should be less fair and to some anf fairer to others it seems.

I dont know what youre gaurdian articles are meant to show.

Your claim - 'This is backed by the fact we have a max life sentance for rape'.
The actuality - 'sentences-for-violent-and-sexual-crimes-fall-sharply-in-england-and-wales'.

Your claim - 'The fact rape convictions have dropped could also point to less occurance.'
The actuality - 'highest-ever-number-of-rapes-recorded-in-england-and-wales'