Guess what? Women hate gender neutral toilets...

[SunniDelite]

Report in a couple of papers this morning...
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10536737/West-End-drama-gender-neutral-toilets-Theatregoers-blast-gross-restrooms.html
I might have gone (if the tickets hadn't been so expensive) but I shall certainly make a note to avoid this theatre in the future...

So, I hear dear Germaine Bunbury is back from her travels soon, I wonder what she would make of all this.

She has been missed around here

Madame Bunbury was always a welcome antidote to the fortunately rare posters insisting that women and girls have no right to boundaries from men.

@Bordois

So, I hear dear Germaine Bunbury is back from her travels soon, I wonder what she would make of all this.

She has been missed around here

She has

Though i do find waits optimism in posting very interesting and probably unread articles very admirable

Urinals are not gender neutral!!

@Kimilybob, so you have never been sexually assaulted then? (You don't need to answer BTW, I am not that intrusive) I will say however I have been and, yes, there is a rape culture. Men who think they can do what they like, when they, and to whom they like.

Article in the Times Scotland today saying that sexual harassment is now so high that students conisder it to be normal. Doesn't look much like progress has been made to me:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e213de20-9500-11ec-bcf4-9dde9b8243da?shareToken=2af1babb1e992bda8f7402bf3ecc8dcf

Gender neutral toilets are fine in theory if they are properly done and have adequate space and private provision for everyone.
Sticking gender neutral signs on outdated toilet doors and expecting to get away with it it useless.
It all comes down to money which they aren't prepared to spend. Its why I have spent more than a second lifetime queuing for ladies loos over the past 50 years. Men get more toilet provision despite spending less time in there and rarely taking the kids in. To reconfigure it fairly and without the inbuilt male bias would cost money and therefore doesn't happen. Who cares if it's just the ladeez and kidz.

@Snailhaterz2

One of my specialist subjects used to be toilet provision in theatres. Women make up more than 50% of theatre audiences and take longer to use toilets. There are less men, and they are quicker, and urinals take up less space than cubicles. As a result, there are actual guidelines and calculations used by architects/planners for an optimum theatre toilet provision, which (a few years ago) would result in new theatres/ major theatre renovations always resulting in many more ladies loos. I'm not working in this area now, but what seems to be happening is that some new theatres are being built with a mixture of gender neutral loos , male loos and female loos. Hopefully they've done the calculations and worked out that this sort of mixture still allows for enough female loos. The problem seems to be with those, like the Playhouse, who basically re-assign existing loos without thinking through the consequences.

I think there are problems with old buildings and trying to plan for today's recognition that the facilties for women 'back in the day' were designed by men for women and women were never consulted.

This is a link to the Government consultation which was about the technical stage, but the preamble makes it clear that the government recognises all the issues women face. I wonder when the consultation findings will be published. www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence

I feel proud that my Aunt Bunbury's instructions are still intact

Forgot to post a section of the consultation which gave me hope In recent years, there has been a trend towards the removal of well-established male-only/female-only spaces when premises are built or refurbished, and they have often been replaced with gender-neutral toilets. This places women at a significant disadvantage. While men can then use both cubicles and urinals, women can only use the former, and women also need safe spaces given their particular health and sanitary needs (for example, women who are menstruating, pregnant or at menopause, may need to use the toilet more often). Women are also likely to feel less comfortable using mixed sex facilities, and require more space. It is also desirable to avoid queues for toilets, and male toilets are typically able to allow for a quicker transition of customers. In addition to this, signage should be clear, and should not seek to avoid the use of gender-specific language unnecessarily as this causes public confusion.

We are therefore launching a technical review to address these points and will also to consider the ratio of female toilet spaces needed, versus the number for men, given the need for women to use cubicles. We want to ensure that everyone is fairly served, and this review will ensure different voices are heard.

I can't stand mixed toilets in restaurants etc. Usually all loos are in cubicals so I've never seen anyone use a urinal (thankfully!) But men drip on the floor and the loos always STINK of stale wee.
Yuck.

If anyone finds toilets in that sort of state, my advice would be to go to a member of staff and complain, loudly and using honest English words, not euphemisms, in front of as many other customers as possible, and ask that they be cleaned immediately.

Bugger having a quiet word at the front desk or over the bar / counter.

I recently had to attend an appointment in a new build University building, all the toilets were designated and signed as gender nuetral however they had A4 printed signs on the door leading inside to say lock the door behind you once you were inside to prevent anyone else coming in. I assumed that meant there was only 1 cublicle, but no, it was a large toilet room with 4 or 5 male urinals along one wall and 2 lockable cublicles plus washing facilities along the other wall. To me it seemed like it had originally been male toilets but repurposed to gender neutral.

The lock the door sign bothered both myself and my husband and both of us felt uncomfortable and potentially unsafe, there was no way to know if there was anyone else in the area until you found yourself locked in with them. The potential for women to walk in on someone with their penis out because they had "accidentally forgotten" (on purpose or genuinely) to lock the door was huge.

When I used the facility I had locked the door and then gone through a second firedoor into the main area to find that one of the cubicles was closed and locked with the red lock tab visible - I had no idea if that toilet was in use, or out of order. I called out but there was no answer but for all I knew someone could have been hiding in there... it quite un nerved me and I am NOT usually someone who gets freaked for no reason. I felt very very unsafe the whole time I was in there.

I am very much "if I need to wee, I need to wee" so generally have no qualms about where I go, even though I know others would rather hold and wait. There is no need to change the status quo though.

@Chersfrozenface

If anyone finds toilets in that sort of state, my advice would be to go to a member of staff and complain, loudly and using honest English words, not euphemisms, in front of as many other customers as possible, and ask that they be cleaned immediately.

Bugger having a quiet word at the front desk or over the bar / counter.

This is what I was thinking. Shame the venue & make sure the loos are clean. Extra points if they're serving someone food or drink within earshot.

In fact, I'd bring in legislation that if mixed-sex loos are introduced, there must be an attendant permanently there to clean up, check for cameras & generally keep everyone safe. I'd make venues liable for anything untoward that happens on the premises unless they can show that they've taken every means possible to prevent it (enough staff nearby & available, panic buttons, efficient sweeping for hidden cameras, etc). If they can't be arsed/ don't want to pay for that, don't introduce mixed-sex toilets. Most women (& a lot of men) don't want them anyway. Make them unprofitable & venues won't, either.

We must keep single sex toilet facilities as well as unisex. This has worked well in the past, why the need to change? The one time I ever HAD to use the mens' loo out of deaperate emergency I was sickened to note that the entire floor was sticky. Why would women want that? No thankyou .

I've used two lots toilets in London that are labelled "for everyone", all cubicles but common sinks, which have an attendant. Not terribly thrilled with them - thinking particularly of women / girls dealing with menstruation - but at least they seemed clean and should be safe.

(You should have seen the faces on the men having to queue, mind!)

There are no disabilities or cultural reasons for single sex loos.

Seriously. We're going to do this.

Ok.

There are no male people who identify as women and want to use women's spaces.
There is no such thing as ice cream.
Boris Johnson doesn't exist.

None of those things are true either, which makes it pointless to say them.

Unless you're keen to do a Donald Trump/Putin, there really is no point in just denying realities you don't like and don't want to exist.
There are women all over threads here who have repeatedly, multiply explained:

YES females are excluded on grounds of disability, culture, faith, belief, trauma (probably and very likely would also be covered under disability on those grounds). Sorry, really sorry these women are causing challenges for male people getting their own way, but we are not making these things up for fun for goodness sake.

Female people have to have equality of access to resources too

Many female people cannot have access if male people are in the space. What legal certificates and what labels and feelings those male people have do not make a difference to this

Male people are going to have to accept that not everything is all about them, and inclusion and access applies to other people too, and they cannot have this 100% their way and just disappear females with inconvenient disadvantages and challenges cos only female

And this all proves, in stereo, to the last decimal place, exactly why females need single sex spaces. Because in mixed sex spaces everything, constantly, is all about males, who dominate the agenda and prevent female needs from getting met.

Have third spaces. Have ninth spaces for all I care. Gold plate them. Serve bloody caviar on rollerskates. You do not get to just declare females who cannot revolve around service to males do not exist and therefore don't matter (and therefore males can have everything and it's fine.)

You're trying to salve your conscience. Think it through. Either you are into access, equality and kindness - which I'm sorry, does mean everyone and not just you and your mates and requires mutual tolerance and a range of provisions to work for said everyone - or you are into male supremacism. Which is it?

I dont understand who exactly benefits from mixed sex toilets? Who is currently being excluded by single sex facilties?

Most men and women don't want them, and, as we are told, mens toilets are too unsafe for transwomen then there's no benefit to them either by making toilets mixed sex.

@Bordois

I dont understand who exactly benefits from mixed sex toilets? Who is currently being excluded by single sex facilties?

Most men and women don't want them, and, as we are told, mens toilets are too unsafe for transwomen then there's no benefit to them either by making toilets mixed sex.

Men who like to make women feel uncomfortable benefit.

And men who want to harm women benefit.

Other men don't benefit. Women don't benefit. And children don't benefit.

Yet, here we are.

By the way rape is prosecuted as much as is possible, similar to other crimes. Our legal system is pretty much the best there is because its fair. That should NEVER be changed to favor ANY group EVER

Rape is barely noticed leave alone prosecuted. If you think less than a thousand charged versus 50 thousand reported is as much as possible then your not well. That's charged, not found guilty in a court and imprisoned, because that number is even smaller still.
Reported is not how many rapes happened, it's just those 50 thousand decided to try and get restitution.
Unreported rapes are double or more reported rapes, or for every one reported rape there are two more unreported.

If our system was in fact fair then many more people would report rape. And get some kind of conviction, but that's not happening at all.

So we should never favour a group in the legal system, but favouring a group (men) over a different group ( women) in respect of toilets, sports, prison, etc ad infinitum is ok?

This is wrong, there should never be adults of the opposite sex together in the same restroom. We do make exceptions for real young children (not able to violate safety, privacy or dignity) but should not for adults.

However, gender neutral toilets for just one person are fine obviously.

Trudysquare - do you mean the entire ROOM of facilities was now set aside for 1 person at a time? The lock was on the outer door to the entire room?

@OperationDessertStorm

Trudysquare - do you mean the entire ROOM of facilities was now set aside for 1 person at a time? The lock was on the outer door to the entire room?

Yes that is exactly what I mean - the outer door leading off the waiting area was lockable, then you went through a short entrance hallway and through the firedoor into the main toilet area which was as I described, there were enough urinals & cubicles to serve about half a dozen men (if also using the urinals) or two females using the cubicles at the same time.

There was absolutely no way to know if anyone else was in there who had intentionally or accidentally not locked the outer door until you had gone through the second heavy door into the main toilet area having locked the outerdoor behind you.