Grace Lavery & Helen Joyce debate 1/4/2022 It is real

[highame]

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1494746862158553088

It is real apparently. Hosted by Unheard

Isn't debating about trying to demolish your opponent? So, 'You shag like a demolition wrecking ball' could be the compliment on offer.

I don't think it means, 'You shag in a way that leads us to be able to explore mutually agreed conclusions'. Not after after the boasting about winning and being the champ. The simile seems to be more about smashing it.

But what do I know. Just pondering really.

Dear god.

I had not come across Lavery before.

This is what struck me:

1. You would think that a Professor would consider fellow academics and intellectuals to be ‘their community’ as well as other points of identity.
2. I read an interview where Lavery was lamenting the lack if opportunities for Trans women to learn proper woman skills from other women, in particular how to apply eye liner. I wondered if she had considered asking fellow academics such as DocStock about this core skill?
3. Reading about Grace’s marriage to Trans man Daniel Lavery I note that they both adopted the surname if the biologically sexed male partner. Odd patriarchal choice for a self proclaimed feminist!

I read an interview where Lavery was lamenting the lack if opportunities for Trans women to learn proper woman skills from other women, in particular how to apply eye liner.

I don't wear make-up. If I should need to, I would go and have a make-up lesson from one of the many venues that offer them. If that's too spendy, there are YT videos. HTH, Lavery.

Lavery spent some time a while back on Twitter complaining they felt unsafe (can’t remember exactly why… something social media based. Twitter Terven? The Farms saying some very mean things?). Anyway, they employed a private security firm for their safety.

What would happen to anyone caught threatening Lavery’s safety with no prison? And considering he’s very anti-cop, anti-military who did he think would be working at these private security firms?

Not sure Lavery thinks things through enough to debate the likes of Helen or Julie. Although it would be amusing to witness.

So, rape, murder, grievous bodily harm and so on shouldn't be crimes, because Lavery doesn't see how criminalisation helps the victims. How thoughtful of Lavery.

During the recent Mess about the Aaron Rabinowitz debacle, one of the interesting things that came out that I didn't know was the Arty Morty's father had been murdered when Arty was young. Arty feels very strongly about this position that nothing should be a crime.

I’m just upset I had to read about Laurie penny and lavery having sex.

@WeeBisom so grim. Those tweets should come with a trigger warning.

What is 'the farms'?

Has anyone worked out yet whether shagging like a debating champion is a good thing or a bad thing? Because when I was at school, none of the kids who excelled in the debating society were ones you'd want to have sex with.

I'd assumed it meant 'focuses entirely on own performance and then congratulates self with no acknowledgement or awareness of other side'.

So, y'know...

@Cailin66

What is 'the farms'?

Kiwi Farms - I don't go to that part of the internet as I'm a delicate flower.

Has anyone heard of street epistemology? it's mission is to encourage critical thinking and skeptism, to get people to think about why they believe what they believe, they have some really interesting debates on you tube including the above.

We can all stop being envious of that Fingerbanging In Berlin now we've seen the unfiltered images of the kind of person who might have been administering it.

I must admit, if I'd been shooting my mouth off on Twitter and realised I'd let myself in for a debate with Helen Joyce then I'd have probably been looking for a way out.

Update from Unherd. unherd.com/thepost/how-grace-lavery-was-silenced-by-her-own-community/

"Perhaps naively, I had hoped that, once there in person, we would be able to find some common humanity and maybe even have a civil and productive conversation. Instead it seems that voices within the trans community are so powerful that they are forbidding any discussion from taking place — and the result will surely be to increase alienation and lack of understanding. Grace’s original instinct to reach out and talk was the right one; it’s a loss for both communities that she was talked out of it.

So here is our offer. We have a beautiful venue, an engaged audience, Helen Joyce has generously agreed to still take part. We would like the event to go ahead. Will any prominent figure from the trans community step forward and take part in a good faith discussion?"

For those who haven't come across lavery before. I want to link to the blogs and to-do that happened back in 2018. For some reason i can't link on my phone but a historian (in queer history) produced a 'manifesto' on free speech. From memory I think it said something about pronouns. Lavery didn't like it and wrote a blog in la review of books.

BLARB Grace lavery Grad School As Conversion Therapy 29/10/2018

The historian replied, saying things which they obviously didn't realise were currently not allowed to be said. (The tone is a bit off on my view)

BLARB Conversion therapy v re-education camp: an open letter to Grace lavery. By Christopher castiglia and Christopher Reed.

A whole bunch of queer studies ppl wrote against the historian in defence of lavery.

BLARB an open letter from queer studies scholars 13/12/2018

The historian replied with a cringe apology. The manifesto was removed at some point. By all accounts he was lucky to keep his job.

BLARB Lessons Learned by Christopher castiglia ad Christopher Reed 19/12/18

The historian has said nothing on the issue since as far as I know.

GL wasn't silenced.

GL saw an out and grabbed it.

I’ve just searched ‘Grace Lavery’ on Twitter, scrolled a fair way down the top tweets and didn’t find one single one that was supporting her. Good to see, especially on Twitter!

But I think Grace will cancel last minute. There is a reason why their stance has always been 'no debate'.

Very percipient, @rabbitwoman

Aren't we all just truly shocked? Not.

Just back to the make up stuff (sorry) but couldn't she (Grace) approach India Knight who does a make up piece in one of the Times supplements at weekends. Never read it cause I wasn't sure whether what suited India would be good for my skin. I'm very helpful, it's in my nature

We can all stop being envious of that Fingerbanging In Berlin now we've seen the unfiltered images of the kind of person who might have been administering it.

Thank you for that laugh, Esma.

Oh please let Lavery's replacement be Monty, I'd buy a shed load of tickets for that

Ages ago, I was having a twitter exchange with someone who was once one of my best friends on this subject, and a few of his pals joined in including one who said would I like to take this off twitter and get into a proper email exchange instead? (he was a bit more condescending, but in the spirit of understanding rather than persuading, I thought.... )

Anyway, the resultant exchange was about 20 sides after two or three emails and was going quite well, I thought. I didn't need to go into any background with this guy, he knew the law and the background so it was a very interesting, thought provoking conversation but, it was very clear, all the reasoning, logic, evidence and sense was coming from my side. He used a lot of words to basically say 'you should be kind because otherwise you are a fascist' without a lot of substance to back it up.

However, I engaged in good faith. It was his go to reply, I was waiting. It had ended positively, I had said that I was enjoying the conversation - but I was standing firm, nothing he had to say was moving me from my opinion.

Anyway, I noticed him engaging on twitter again so I did what you are supposed to do on twitter and engaged, I replied to a tweet of his and next thing I know he was raining down such a nasty tirade of abuse on me!! Saying he had trued his best to get through to me, but I was obviously thick and had no understanding of the struggles of the LGBTQ community, I was a transphobe and a bigot but also refusing to address my internal misogyny, I REFUSED to listen to what he was saying WHILST SCREAMING that no one was listening to ME, when he had been so patient and kind as to explain it all to me..... He then proclaimed me 'no friend of the LGBTQ community' and blocked me....

I was disappointed, but not surprised. I had actually thought I was in the middle of having a reasonable, respectful and equal debate but no. I was refusing to be told to be kind....

I just think this will be the way it goes for a while yet. Pretty soon there will be more evidence of detransitioners and more evidence of harm from puberty blockers and we might be able to build bridges again, seems a shame they must be built on the pain of others....

Anyhoo, I am holding firm.

rabbitwoman: what you have described is absolutely par for the course with these people. They have no rational arguments, just abuse and appeals to emotion. If you attempt to reason with them they simply call you a fascist and block you. This is exactly what Lavery has done - called Helen a fascist and then did the real life equivalent of blocking which was to refuse to debate.

I think two things probably became clear to Lavery very quickly. One is that the debate was going to be attended by hundreds of feminists supporting Joyce, and not very many trans activists (because in truth, there aren't that many, and most of them are keyboard warriors who haven't got the energy to make it as far as Shepherds Bush). The second thing is that Lavery would be bringing a knife to a gunfight. The humiliation of the famed Cambridge debater being roundly beaten by a woman - the real kind - would be too much.

..... and I love hearing Helen Joyce speak, she is eloquent and elegant and obviously sharply intelligent with all the evidence at her fingertips. Just reading her book, actually, and I cannot imagine anyone reading it and coming away with allegiance to Lavery et al intact.

I get SO frustrated with the way 'fascist' is randomly chucked about as shorthand for 'really mean person who disagrees with me'. It really does smack of Rik from the Young Ones, and for someone who claims to be an academic using it without irony as a valid reason not to engage in debate is just... bafflingly bonkers.

But then, I'm one of those people who believe words have meanings.