Grace Lavery & Helen Joyce debate 1/4/2022 It is real

[highame]

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1494746862158553088

It is real apparently. Hosted by Unheard

I see rabbitwoman beat me to it.

@BettyFilous

Isn’t it telling that no one is worrying about Helen being a no-show? The gender critical stance definitely has more steadfast, professional advocates. If we really represent such a tiny, tiny minority view then surely TW should have the upper hand in these debates? It would be like debating a flat Earther. Bring your evidence and arguments, Grace. Let’s hear them. I’d love some straight answers.

From Lavery's screenshot, it doesn't seem as if Lavery doesn't have that sort of material in mind.

Such a shame. Mind, I wouldn't want a pile of Foucault, Levi Strauss, Butler and the usual tediums.

@Cwenthryth
Hmmm!!!! I just happen to have that day off. I’ve bought a ticket to attend in person. I’m genuinely interested to hear what Grace has to say.

I figure if Grace doesn’t turn up - which is what everyone expects - it’ll still be a good night to meet and chat with likeminded women. The bar could be very interesting, if the event also attracts transactivist attendees who actually want to come into the venue and listen to what is being said, rather than just stand outside and shout abuse as they usually do! And maybe Grace will surprise us, which would be great, because as I said, genuinely interested in an actual honest in-person discussion between a vocal TRA and HJ.

I think I’m going to get a ticket to go in person, just need to check my diary. I would be really interested to meet and talk to GC people in real life - I had a chat recently with a couple of GC women who were protesting outside a government department and happened to be getting coffee in my local coffee shop, and it was so much more constructive and positive than all the online discussions/arguments I’ve been involved in.

I suspect I’ll find the actual event a bit depressing though - from what you’ve posted of GL I’m not sure she’s the person I want arguing ‘my side’ of the debate….

On twitter grace says that she has 2 debates with GCs lined up. I wonder who the other one is with?

She also says there is a well known gender critical activist helping her prepare. Apparently this woman is terrified of her own 'side' and is keeping it hush. I think it is great that a gc person is helping her prepare. The better the quality of the discussion, and the more genuine knowledge of each others sides arguments they have the more genuine and positive the outcome will be. I can believe that someone is scared of twitter pile-ons and harsh criticism. I don't like going against the gc consensus here or on twitter. (In person is much better).

But grace is also saying helen and the other gc debater are 'fascists' and telling trans people not to attend to support her because of the harm they will be exposed to. She can sometimes sound sensible but then says this complete fruit-loopery & it casts doubt on everything she says.

I hope it goes ahead. I wonder if it will be available to see afterwards.

I've bought a ticket - interesting that unlike any of the meetings organised by women's groups the venue is publically available.

But grace is also saying helen and the other gc debater are 'fascists' and telling trans people not to attend to support her because of the harm they will be exposed to.

Oh I can see the narrative already. The GC women who are desperate for this to be debated in public will turn up. Lavery doesn't want any supporters there so Lavery will be able to claim a scary, bullying atmosphere and that Lavery was the most vulnerable minority being bullied?

Is that it?

I am torn between wanting to see this issue openly debated and wanting to support Helen and not wanting to treat Lavery with undeserved importance.

Apparently this woman is terrified of her own 'side' and is keeping it hush. I think it is great that a gc person is helping her prepare.

Let us bear in mind the source of this claim while also acknowledging that the source of it means that we might not agree on the definition of woman in this context.

I think it's hilarious that Lavery is claiming a gender critical woman is helping Lavery prepare. I don't believe it for a second.

I can't get enthusiastic about debating the 'gender wars' with a man. We don't need debate; we need our rights respected and upheld. And the voices we need to amplify are those of women.

I really hope it goes well, Helen seems to very cool, calm and collected, she will also be very well researched and be prepared and wouldn’t stoop to personal digs. Grace is a bit of a loose cannon and often seems to do things for the shock value but at least they want to meet up, Im a bit worried about the content and tone of those tweets. I won’t be able to go but will definitely try to watch online.

@lovelyweathertoday

I think it's hilarious that Lavery is claiming a gender critical woman is helping Lavery prepare. I don't believe it for a second.

Obviously not a "well known gender critical activist" who has received death/rape/assault threats for stating biological givens. I thought that was run of the mill for GC activists with scarcely any profile never mind a "well known" one.

It's almost as if there's something off about this account. I assume this open-minded debate-prep buddy is fine with Lavery's proposed use of porn as preparation?

Apparently this woman is terrified of her own 'side' and is keeping it hush. I think it is great that a gc person is helping her prepare.

My guess is this person is of the same cloth as the occasional ex-GC people who crop up every now and then to publicly repent and say how terrible GC people are while mysteriously not mentioning or refuting a single gender critical argument.
It's quite an accomplishment to be 'ex' something when you don't actually know what it is

@Dobedodo

Katy monty might do it.

Katy has already backed out of a debate. Only prepared to talk to GC people on their YouTube show.

@Cwenthryth

Sorry, screenshot

wtf?

But grace is also saying helen and the other gc debater are 'fascists' and telling trans people not to attend to support her because of the harm they will be exposed to

If Lavery doesn’t cancel I’ll eat my hat.

I don't think Lavery will cancel. I think Lavery is over confident.

I'd love to see this live - watching a public evisceration by wit and science is appealing.

It should be held in a coliseum, really.

I looked for a thread here on the Mess debate. It was insane, but ultimately reassuring because Aaron had no arguments of substance whatsoever, and was so clearly arguing in bad faith.

@DidoDino

I can't get enthusiastic about debating the 'gender wars' with a man. We don't need debate; we need our rights respected and upheld. And the voices we need to amplify are those of women.

Yes I’m sure Helen said that herself, that we need to speak around these people because reasoning is not possible.

I looked for a thread here on the Mess debate. It was insane, but ultimately reassuring because Aaron had no arguments of substance whatsoever, and was so clearly arguing in bad faith

I'm rolling my eyes that they invited him on and gave him further opportunity to do this, after his completely good faith, well reasoned debate recently.

Katy has already backed out of a debate. Only prepared to talk to GC people on their YouTube show.

Katy would get absolutely roasted in any sort of proper, intellectual debate with someone like Helen Joyce. Katy spreads misinformation, misses out/glosses over key points and is generally pretty disingenuous. Katy is much more suited to an Owen Jones podcast, where he will just fawn and nod along.

I am very interested in this debate with Grace Lavery. #nodebate is history, bring it on!

I've bought a ticket for the zoom. Can't wait!

@lovelyweathertoday

But grace is also saying helen and the other gc debater are 'fascists' and telling trans people not to attend to support her because of the harm they will be exposed to.

Oh I can see the narrative already. The GC women who are desperate for this to be debated in public will turn up. Lavery doesn't want any supporters there so Lavery will be able to claim a scary, bullying atmosphere and that Lavery was the most vulnerable minority being bullied?

Is that it?

I am torn between wanting to see this issue openly debated and wanting to support Helen and not wanting to treat Lavery with undeserved importance.

I think you might be absolutely right- I might save your post and see if it comes true before 1st April!

She also says there is a well known gender critical activist helping her prepare. Apparently this woman is terrified of her own 'side' and is keeping it hush.

It's understandable. Gender-critical feminists are scary as fuck. We have ribbons and everything.