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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Grace Lavery & Helen Joyce debate 1/4/2022 It is real

307 replies

highame · 19/02/2022 09:15

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1494746862158553088

It is real apparently. Hosted by Unheard

OP posts:
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19
OneEpisode · 22/02/2022 14:39

The podcast linked earlier (Nina Paley and Corinna Cohn vs Grace) was very interesting, I would recommend it. Corinna has had testes surgically removed and mentioned a time when C couldn’t afford hormones. The contrast to GL was very marked…

rabbitwoman · 22/02/2022 14:43

In the email exchange I mentioned earlier I had one last essay to submit.... No one ever got to read it and I thought it was pretty good - I will put it here, it is pretty long, might take three separate posts, so leap past if it is not your thing, but i think here is as good a place as ever for it....

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/02/2022 14:46

was disappointed, but not surprised. I had actually thought I was in the middle of having a reasonable, respectful and equal debate but no. I was refusing to be told to be kind....

It's often fear that you might have a point that they can't refute and then they won't be able to pretend or handwave it all away, that you might make them into an unwoke pariah, that's why the #bekind crew get so very very angry. They don't appreciate you bursting their bubble.

rabbitwoman · 22/02/2022 14:47

I feel that it is really hard to look at anything else without getting past the TWAW/ TWAM question and what this throws up. I really want to spend a bit of time putting this to bed, because it does seem that anyone even hints that they may not be fully behind TWAW without exception is labelled as transphobic from the off.

You said that you were astonished that women were merely asking for equality and not revenge - what an interesting idea! But revenge on whom? My dad, my brothers? My nephews? My husband? No need for revenge but yeah, i think we are well overdue appropriate reparations,

Take the recent BLM movement - yes, yes, all lives matter, but the fact is that there was a point of time, within living memory, that black lives mattered less than white. The evil of slavery and segregation may be in the past, but the consequences for the black community are still felt today - not just residual racism, but the opportunities denied whole generations of black people have led to the poverty and persecution they still suffer. This is going to take lifetimes to unpick and put right, but we are trying - we show the community the respect it deserves by giving it protections and rights, but also, we are trying to redress the balance with scholarships, organisations, charities, awards, associations, political spaces and services that are just for black people. Not for white people, even if they feel an affinity with the black community, even if they identify as black, these things are for black people only, to make reparations for the atrocities they have suffered and try to redress the balance. Imagine a political movement with a huge focus on the rights of white people to be legally recognised as black; 'TB are B! End of! Check your privilege, get an education!' Transracial people do exist, i assume you have seen the Rachel Doziel documentary (Netflix?)? But there is no way a white person could ever be black because being black has included atrocities and prejudices that a white person could never know about.

But over half of black people are women. Any class oppressed because of a shared characteristic is over half made up of women - black people, Jewish people, Muslims, gay people, disabled people, suffer prejudices based on their shared characteristics and then on top of that women suffer from sex based persecution too, which is only and ever because of the biology we share. No other oppressed demographic makes up over half of the world's population.

As a class, the thing that unites us is our biology. It is our biology that has imprisoned us and trapped us and robbed us of opportunities to flourish that men take for granted, because our biology is the only biology that can have babies.

You mentioned Miss America earlier and dismissed Phyllis Schlafly as a misogynistic woman. She was no such thing - if anything, she was a realist and i think she was a visionary, like she had a crystal ball or something! Equal rights for women mean nothing without robust and appropriate protections. Of course a woman should be paid the same wage for doing exactly the same job as a man - but what happens when that woman gets pregnant and can no longer do the exact same job as her male counterpart? What happens when that baby comes along and that woman now has to nourish that baby, care for that baby? Caring for children is a full time commitment, someone has to be there every minute of the day, especially when they are small, so if women are now equal to men and therefore expected to do the same as men, who is having and looking after all these babies? Equal rights outside the home mean nothing without equal responsibility inside the home, otherwise you are just doubling a woman's workload.

Just imagine a pregnant Prime Minister. Would a Prime Minister who had just given birth or had a baby or a toddler be able to do the same job as a Prime Minister who hadn't? And i make no comment on the gender identity of said hypothetical Prime Minister - could be a transman, non-binary or a woman, the problems would be exactly the same. And now consider that Boris Johnson, Gordon Brown and Tony Blair all became new fathers whilst in Downing Street and yet were able to step back into the role without a lot of disruption - it would not have made any difference if one of them had identified as female, they still would have been able to do so. Of course, an incredibly ambitious Prime Minister would not let the small matter of giving birth stop them - unless they lost 8 pints of blood, maybe, then they might need a few days to get back on their feet - and a nanny (or manny) could be found for an immediate start, but that is not an option open to many many women. There is no equality there - what about waste removal operatives, soldiers, teachers, sports professionals, doctors, cashiers, delivery drivers ..... well, i tell you what, why don't you try and find an example of a career that it does not affect?

This is a challenge faced by working women to this day. A high flying, high earning career is greedy of your time and the competition is fierce. Yes, of course a woman can be anything she wants to be, but she also has to have babies too - does that sound like equality to you?

rabbitwoman · 22/02/2022 14:49

Cont:

The biggest sexist misogynist out there is mother nature, if she had intended men to share the work of nurturing babies they would have been able to breastfeed. But it is women, only women, only ever women that can do this. So equality for women isn't enough, we also need protections and rights that men do not have.

Pregnancy and childbirth takes a toll on a woman's body like nothing a man - or tranwoman - can ever empathise with. A woman's body is no longer theirs alone for 9 months, and will never be the same again. Women who get piles and morning sickness get off easily - to prepare for Childbirth all of the tendons and connective tissue in a woman's body will relax and soften; in one woman i knew this happened prematurely and to the extent that her shoulders and hips started dislocating, she spent BOTH her pregnancies on crutches and in a wheelchair. When my sister was pregnant, the baby drew all the calcium out of her body and her teeth began to crumble. Yes, you get free dental care whilst you are pregnant but that ends as soon as the baby is born and guess what? Your teeth don't grow back.

And childbirth? We gotta push something the size of a melon out of a hole the size of a lemon. it is only very recently, within the last 100 years or so, that childbirth stopped being the no1 cause of death for women globally, but even with those advances in maternity care and medicine, very few women escape childbirth without some kind of longlasting effects - from tears and damage to the vagina and split perineums to permanent pelvic floor and nerve damage. Goodbye orgasms - hello to peeing every time you laugh! To say nothing of the mental toll - dealing with postnatal depression, PTSD and extreme exhaustion being at the beck and call of a tiny little dictator who wakes you up at 3am and demands to be fed from your body. But don't forget to sign onto your work intranet and complete the latest WENUS.

You would think that after everything we go through to grow and give life to every single human being that ever lived, that we would be revered and worshipped, that we would be treated as precious and respected but no. Because making children, raising children, looking after children generates no money - costs money, in fact - so it has been devalued and dismissed in all but the most primitive cultures that existed before money.

However, most humans have a primal desire to have children. To continue their genes, and look after them when they are old and a man cannot do that himself, he needs a woman to do it for him. By hook or by crook - sure, through history men have met women and they fall in love and have babies, sure, but that is but a lovely romantic fantasy for many. Women are still forced into marriages today with much older men and expected to start having babies to the exclusion of any education, or enrichment, and it was ever thus because it is only women who can have babies. In history even privileged women have suffered, probably more than most. No princess or duchess or rich man's daughter was born without instant speculation about who would be best for them to marry and form alliances and power bases, no matter what they wanted to do with their lives and who they wanted to share their bodies with. Margaret Beaufort, mother of Henry VII, was 13 years old when she gave birth, and this is the lot of women, whether they are black or white or Jewish or of noble blood or peasants in the field, this is what has happened to women throughout history so that we can all be here today. A huge proportion of those mothers were raped, forced, coerced, or not given a choice over what to do with their own bodies. A huge proportion of those raped and abused mothers were children themselves.

What women's bodies have done is amazing. It is an honour and a privilege to have one - vaginas are incredible, what they can do whilst pushing out babies is a miracle. You can't make one out of an inverted penis or a length of bowel - it is not a front hole with no other use than for a man to ejaculate into it, it gives life and is unique only to women. yet our sacrifices have been so devalued that even women like me, who have chosen not to have babies, are seen as subservient and second class, only useful for what we can give men, only viable as support for men to have the children they want and the career they desire.

And when women like me chose not to become mothers? Or the women who can't? We still all share that biology and the oppression and prejudices that come with it. I still had periods - yup, horrible to start them so young but I am very lucky that mine aren't too bad. Just a bit of diarrhea and some awful wind, a few leaks but then I always wear black trousers, just in case! For some, with periods come endemetreosis, Pre menstrual tension, hormonal migraines, bloating, breast pain..... And the next part of my female story will be the glory of menopause....

Superb. I will battle my hardest against becoming one of those 'invisible women'; whilst my body sends out signals that I am no longer fertile so not worth fucking, society will be saying I have not played my role in contributing to the human race so am worthless. But will I finally be free to persue my dream of becoming The Ultimate Fighting Champion!?

Not if I have to come up against Fallon Fox I won't. Not with a body now at increased risk of osteoporosis and all the female cancers held momentarily at bay by pre-menopausal levels of Eastrogen. Whilst a 78 Yr old man has just been voted Leader of the Free World I will be trying to stop my vagina from atrophying and plucking my newly sprouting chin hair, no doubt.

Do you think when a transwoman says that she's a woman because she feels like a woman she's talking about the main characteristics that have defined women's lives for millenia? The pain and challenges of pregnancy and Childbirth, loosing ourselves in the role of motherhood? What does 'living as a woman' mean? When transwomen say they are now living as a woman, do they mean juggling three children, a full time job, doing all the house work and carrying all the emotional workload of a family whilst looking sexy to keep their men happy?

Literally every transgression against women that has ever been committed is because the world needs babies and women are the only people who can make those babies so that is what our smaller weaker, slower bodies are designed for. Sex is not a spectrum because there is no spectrum of pregnancy - there aren't some of us who only grow heads and some who do feet! One woman, one baby - often more than one ! - and that is a physical sacrifice, a huge risk, a lifetime commitment and something that men do often take for granted.

To me, anyone who says transwomen are women does not appreciate the unique function of our female bodies, which is to have babies, or has ever given thought to the sacrifices and hardships billions of women have faced throughout the whole of human history to give birth to every single human being on the planet.

Anyone who says 'yes, but the question is, what makes someone a woman, is it something more than your biology, something innate?' is thumbing their noses at every single woman - and girl - who has ever died in childbirth.

To me, anyone who talks about gender spectrums, or male brains or female brains don't seem to know where babies come from - babies don't come out of our amygdalas, Nick!

And if you say, yes, but some men have babies, and some women have penises, then you have removed the ability to group all of us together and talk about our lives and define the oppression against us. We need to be able to describe the class of people that have babies and need protections because they have babies and that word is woman.

That's the true story of womanhood and there is plenty of room for anyone who shares that story, including transmen should they so chose. Why does manhood have to be so inflexible and rigid that you are excluding transwomen?

As a thank you for having bodies that make children please can we keep our womens' sports? Please can we let our bodies be celebrated for doing something other than make babies? Please don't let us lose even one accolade to a transwoman whose body hasn't had to sacrifice strength and power so it can use every cell to best keep the human race going?

So, in reparation for the abuses heaped on our female bodies please can we keep our language to describe ourselves and our experiences? Everyone knows what women are and what women have done for humanity, so please don't call us cervix havers or menstruators, please don't tell us that's all we are. Please don't call us cis, please don't make us define ourselves by what we are not, we should be the default, not a subset.

Call us TERFs by all means, that's what we are, but don't spit it like an insult. When women like me, or jk Rowling, assert that biological reality exists and sex is real, please don't bully us off of our platforms by calling us bigots. Don't shut us up by telling us we are transphobic, don't tell us we are ignorant and need to get an education, don't tell us we have no right to comment and should check our privilege. We have earnt the right to that opinion by living in our bodies, make reparations for the things those bodies have been through and done for you by respecting that right. If you see anyone doing it, challenge them. You start off the new rhetoric; respect the TERFS, we may not agree but don't threaten to punch them or rape them or set them on fire because honestly, they have been through enough. Don't repress their opinions and make them fear for their livelihoods, don't block, don't insult. Do this in reparation for how women have ever been treated,.

Now, you believe that there is a more elusive quality that transcends biology and makes transwomen women and transmen men, that has nothing to do with any of this - i would be very interested to really understand that because i cannot see how a feeling, a belief, that cannot be described without resorting to sexist and misogynistic stereotypes really can trump biological reality. I have asked - in the quick fire world of twitter as soon as we question it we are told to shut up! Transphobe! Bigot! Disgusting TERF, check your privelege and choke on my girl dick! BLOCK!! Or the polite version of let's not talk about this because I can't change your mind and I don't want to fall out..... So no one has ever even given me a convincing account of what makes a woman if its not her biology.

but you can maybe understand why TERFs are so set in their beliefs?

You believe that women's rights should hinge on that and here there are no half measures, it really has to be one or the other.

but that does not mean we have no common ground. Work to move past it and see if a solution lies elsewhere.

daringdoris · 22/02/2022 16:30

Wow rabbitwoman, those posts are amazing! No wonder that person couldn't muster up a reply!

In fact, I'm going to read them again...

Gumbomambo · 22/02/2022 16:46

Brilliant posts!! I would have blocked you on Twitter too 😂

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 22/02/2022 17:00

@Gumbomambo

Brilliant posts!! I would have blocked you on Twitter too 😂
Hell yeah

Awesome posts

DialSquare · 22/02/2022 17:03

Wow rabbitwoman. I just read your posts on the train and I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes. So powerful.

rabbitwoman · 22/02/2022 19:54

Thank you xxxx

I am gutted I never got to send them to him, although I am fairly certain his reposte would be accusing me of being a biology essentialist and saying women who don't have children aren't real women.

Etc.

I have certainly heard it all before but am still baffled why anyone falls for it, especially women who have had children themselves.

rabbitwoman · 22/02/2022 22:22

...... a nice little mention on twitter there, thank you whoever that was xxxx

twitter.com/TheRealPocus/status/1496169594855301124?t=EAASxPbmEy7SdpsGALSwGw&s=19

PatsArrow · 23/02/2022 09:12

Incredible essay Rabbitwoman. It should be read out in Parliament.

miri1985 · 23/02/2022 09:23

Quelle Surpise the Bindel debate seems to be off too

Grace Lavery & Helen Joyce debate 1/4/2022 It is real
Grace Lavery & Helen Joyce debate 1/4/2022 It is real
rabbitwoman · 23/02/2022 09:24

@PatsArrow

Incredible essay Rabbitwoman. It should be read out in Parliament.
Ooo, yes!! Imagine someone really passionate about women's rights reading it out, someone like Jess Philips or Mhairi Black..... Oh, wait a second.....
Helleofabore · 23/02/2022 09:34

Oh what a surprise!

I think that they are referring to the photos that Lavery posted of their abuse of their spouse.

Maybe, just maybe, Lavery will understand that if they wouldn’t want their mum to see those images, to see the comparative references their child is making about their semi-flaccid penis, then maybe it is time for Lavery to grow the fuck up.

Even teenagers know not to post things on the internet that they aren’t perfectly happy for their mums to see. Because once you post it, the control of that image is lost forever.

And Lavery has been so proud of their fist in mouths, and bite marks and choke holds on Daniel, too. And really proud of their penis that they describe it in their own book too.

PatsArrow · 23/02/2022 09:35

@miri1985

Quelle Surpise the Bindel debate seems to be off too

It's funny isn't it that there's never any screenshots or evidence of all this AWFUL sexual harrassment by gender critical feminists 🙄

Helleofabore · 23/02/2022 09:42

When reposting pictures that people have posted themselves proudly and not deleted soon after, and unmodified pictures in their original context, is considered ‘abuse’, the bar is rather low.

DomesticatedZombie · 23/02/2022 10:02

@miri1985

Quelle Surpise the Bindel debate seems to be off too
Gosh, dangerous vicious juggernaut out for blood? How awful. Poor Grace.

Is this like how transwomen are afraid of Jenni Murray? Or women with British accents in general?

Datun · 23/02/2022 10:03

Wow @rabbitwoman that was a fantastic post.

A glorious celebration of womanhood, coupled with a damning condemnation of how we are treated, without an inch of hyperbole it's no mean feat. I really hope you're a writer.

And I agree, it should be read out in parliament and sent to every lawmaker.

Women are so second-class, that a matter of fact description of our contribution to humanity is rare.

It shouldn't be. It should be on the tip of everyone's tongue, at the beginning of every decision. Not only are we half the human race, we have the most important job. By miles.

The rare beauty of that post @rabbitwoman isn't showing up to the negatives of transgenderism by pointing out how some men will take advantage of it, it's the sheer ludicrousness of anyone, anywhere attempting to replicate, copy or covet the uniqueness of what it is to be female.

TheCurrywurstPrion · 23/02/2022 10:07

What woman send such pictures to Lavery’s mother? Sounds astonishingly unlikely.

The eternal crybully revealed.

DomesticatedZombie · 23/02/2022 10:10

@TheCurrywurstPrion

What woman send such pictures to Lavery’s mother? Sounds astonishingly unlikely.

The eternal crybully revealed.

Do they mean the pictures Grace posted of Grace's husband with bite marks on their face? And Grace's fist in their mouth?
candycane222 · 23/02/2022 10:14

Hellofabore but publicly wishing death on someone is fine?

Helleofabore · 23/02/2022 10:15

@candycane222

Hellofabore but publicly wishing death on someone is fine?
Pardon?
candycane222 · 23/02/2022 10:15

(... or have I missed an apology about that?)

Helleofabore · 23/02/2022 10:16

@candycane222

Hellofabore but publicly wishing death on someone is fine?
Who has wished Lavery dead?