Grace Lavery & Helen Joyce debate 1/4/2022 It is real

[highame]

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1494746862158553088

It is real apparently. Hosted by Unheard

Didn't Lavery's ex say Lavery shags like a debate champion?

Bit cutting.

This Jacqui Shine is an interesting person to choose, agree, @BraveBananaBadge.

I mean, I assume that Grace Lavery had a whole network to help. Seems strange Grace would ask someone with so much on their plate.

Does "strange" mean "totally selfish" or "batshit" these days? I can't seem to keep up.

Bloody hell, does that woman not know the word “no” - as in the sentence: “no, I have enough of my own shit going on right now, I don’t want to publicly embroil myself in yours”. Or has she just immediately unquestioningly leapt to the aid of her the-most-vulnerable-demographic-ever-ever friend, despite the fact she’s facing all that herself right now. Hmm, what’s that phrase, something-socialisation? How fucking crass of Lavery to put that upon her.

It's just so slippery and immature from all involved, vivarium, stomping around making ridiculous excuses.

There's many ways GL could have got their message out, but to hide behind someone playing such a cartoonish sympathy card so everyone 'fucks off' and can't ask any questions is just stupid. (The movement in a nutshell though, I suppose.)

Looking forward to the next Mess We're In just to hear them all pissing themselves at this.

Didn't Lavery's ex say Lavery shags like a debate champion?

No! That is hilariously brutal and I love it. Who said that? Surely not Laurie Penny, I don’t believe she has it in her.

This has been a very entertaining episode of the Terf wars. If only they gave Nobel prizes for clownery, Grace would have a better parking space.

@allmywhat

Didn't Lavery's ex say Lavery shags like a debate champion?

No! That is hilariously brutal and I love it. Who said that? Surely not Laurie Penny, I don’t believe she has it in her.

This has been a very entertaining episode of the Terf wars. If only they gave Nobel prizes for clownery, Grace would have a better parking space.

It really happened

I feel like I'm in the Upside Down.

I just nodded at Laurie Penny's words and thought "oooh, sudocream's not going to cut that"

NOTHING MAKES SENSE ANY MORE!

It really happened

Just beautiful. There badly needs to be a term, perhaps there is one in another language, which means to go further than a self own, and own not just yourself but the person you're sucking up to. Thereby owning yourself twice.

I wonder why Grace used this unwell friend to deliver the retreat message. Why not Grace's husband, Daniel Lavery? They have a lively Twitter account that makes no mention at all of this whole debacle, but is just wittering on about a movie.

Also interesting that the husband has taken the wife's surname. How very unconventional.

That is an interesting question @unwashedanddazed

Almost as if people with extra complicated lives are, I don't know, ideal billboards?

Hard to tell. I will give careful consideration to the lack of academic peers, trans icons, royalists or clever people who are willing to say "Grace is a good egg!" though. I mean, Jacqui only managed to muster a call to arms of "here is the C+P, it's a favour, don't bug me" which is not the most invigorating speech I've heard.

I am a little concerned for Jacqui. Hope she is not being dragged into something she doesn't have time for.

Grace Lavery is an f-ing joke. Saw her on Twitter the other day, saying she thinks we should abolish all prisons.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus
What was the Andy Lewis letter debate?

Exchange of letters between Andy Lewis and Aaron Rabinowitz: Sceptics need to be Gender Critical.

letter.wiki/conversation/1232

Thanks so much for directing me to that, I had completely missed it. Really interesting.

@me4real

Grace Lavery is an f-ing joke. Saw her on Twitter the other day, saying she thinks we should abolish all prisons.

Lavery went further than that. Prison abolition is a fairly common position on twitter amongst trans- activists.

Lavery said "I don't think anything should be illegal. [Snipped for brevity] I don't think the criminalization of harm helps anyone heal".

So, rape, murder, grievous bodily harm and so on shouldn't be crimes, because Lavery doesn't see how criminalisation helps the victims. How thoughtful of Lavery.

Presumably misgendering wouldn't be a crime either?

Sorry, it was "I don't think anything should be a crime" etc.

Transcribing by switching tabs on a small screen.

Now that is a proper debate with interesting ideas to think about.

Well not really. It’s just The Purge.

Oh god, imagine The Purge part 96 where everyone’s just going round misgendering everyone on Twitter for 24 hours.

Horrific!

Oliver Burkeman thinks deeply about the logistics of the potentially-still-happening Julie Bindel debate.

Logic puzzle: if you're both fascists and therefore any platform that platforms you is a platform that platforms fascists, and Lavery backed out of debate #1 to avoid enriching a fascist platform, how can debate #2 go ahead? Helen maybe your Phd can help here

This is the first time, in my lifetime that the political left has become the joke. It used to be the intellectual arm of politics but hey ho, there was always a chance of the swingometer getting thrown too many curved balls

Well, I agree with Laurie Penny on one thing. I'm glad Lavery is on their side

The reason why abolish prisons is such a battle cry that goes hand in hand with twaw is because it is the only way to reconcile the rather troublesome prison question.

Of course this whole ideology is leading to men who are convicted Rapists being placed into women's prisons. If we ask about this, if this is okay, no one in their right mind would suggest that it is but they cannot also admit that some tw might be lying so their answer is that there should not be prisons at all. Then they don't have to say that rapists should be put in women's prisons.

See also: sport should not be competitive, it should be about taking part and

Nobody should ever be getting changed in front of anyone else, use a stall and stop looking at other people's genitals, you pervert!!

@ScreamingMeMe

Well, I agree with Laurie Penny on one thing. I'm glad Lavery is on their side

Now that really is a burn 🔥

@Deliriumoftheendless

Oh god, imagine The Purge part 96 where everyone’s just going round misgendering everyone on Twitter for 24 hours.

Horrific!

Love it

Im not sure we have to wait for number 96 though 🤔

This is the first time, in my lifetime that the political left has become the joke.

Well, there always was right-wing "humour" caricaturing the left, but it wasn't funny because it didn't really ring true. It was disingenuous and forced.

Whole thing's totally flipped now. The right-wing caricatures of the left are hard to distinguish from the real thing, and it's the left-wing caricatures of the "right" that are disingenous and forced.

@ScreamingMeMe

Well, I agree with Laurie Penny on one thing. I'm glad Lavery is on their side

Oh god yes!

Has anyone worked out yet whether shagging like a debating champion is a good thing or a bad thing? Because when I was at school, none of the kids who excelled in the debating society were ones you'd want to have sex with.