Grace Lavery & Helen Joyce debate 1/4/2022 It is real

[highame]

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1494746862158553088

It is real apparently. Hosted by Unheard

unherd.com/unherd-live-seeking-a-way-through-the-gender-wars/

I’d love to go in person but it’s too far away, but will definitely watch online!

I'm going to try and do the online too. Thanks for that Link Crouton

A good use of £5 to attend online.

Fair play to Grace (if this actually DOES go ahead) for agreeing to debate.

I've never heard of Freddie Sayers, does anyone know if he is neutral, or if not, which side he leans towards?

I have just been looking at trains and hotel rooms mainly because I see Helen Stainland is going and I would love to meet her....

..... But I think Grace will cancel last minute. There is a reason why their stance has always been 'no debate'.

Did anyone see the absolute mess of The Mess We're In this week where they tried to 'debate' with a TRA? His opening gambit was to accuse thrm of being anti semetic because they once linked to an article that linked to an article by Jennifer Bilek or something, and it was impossible to bring him back to actual grass roots implications of this ideology such as Rapists in women's prisons because he only wanted to engage at the faux intellectual level. Most people don't know who biiek is, or facault, or butler or even Ray Blanchard, but everyone knows what a penis looks like and what it means in women's spaces....

I think Grace, if she turns up, will attempt to derail the conversation into academic word salad which is incomprehensible to most, but Helen is definitely not gong to fall for that!!

What I particularly like about Helen is that she has no background in this. She has come into it from her journalism and has been appalled, like many here, rather than being an academic feminist, so she cannot be taken down that way.

Should be amazing. I am definitely shelling out a fiver for it.

Did anyone see the absolute mess of The Mess We're In this week where they tried to 'debate' with a TRA?

Which TRA was that? agree Lavery will cancel but getting my ticket and popcorn.

@NancyDrawed

Fair play to Grace (if this actually DOES go ahead) for agreeing to debate.

I've never heard of Freddie Sayers, does anyone know if he is neutral, or if not, which side he leans towards?

Sayers is the editor and does a fair amount of podcast interviews. He's a good editor and knows who to commission for decent writing.

He skews right but I've no idea of his stance on this issue. I'd doubt Lavery would have consented if Sayers had a public opinion.

Interview here with Maya Forstater.

unherd.com/thepost/maya-forstater-todays-judgment-on-trans-is-a-landmark/

I'll have a read of that, thank you.

The Mess was a mess alright.Might have worked better 1 to 1 than having the whole crew on there. HJ has a mind like a steel trap. Can't see her falling for diversionary tactics or provocations.

If it does go ahead, I predict a gish gallop (gish galloping?) from Lavery.

I had never heard of it as a diversion technique before becoming aware of this debate, but have seen it used by the TWAW side.

@rabbitwoman i met Helen Staniland at a conference and was too embarrassed to let on that I knew who she was (I was quite new to it at that point) but she was absolutely lovely

If Lavery does cancel does Lavery have to repay the hire costs? These things are quite costly so bar exigent circumstances it's very bad form to withdraw. I've no idea what insurance arrangements can be made.

Hmmm!!!! I just happen to have that day off. I’ve bought a ticket to attend in person. I’m genuinely interested to hear what Grace has to say.

I figure if Grace doesn’t turn up - which is what everyone expects - it’ll still be a good night to meet and chat with likeminded women. The bar could be very interesting, if the event also attracts transactivist attendees who actually want to come into the venue and listen to what is being said, rather than just stand outside and shout abuse as they usually do! And maybe Grace will surprise us, which would be great, because as I said, genuinely interested in an actual honest in-person discussion between a vocal TRA and HJ.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Did anyone see the absolute mess of The Mess We're In this week where they tried to 'debate' with a TRA?

Which TRA was that? agree Lavery will cancel but getting my ticket and popcorn.

Aaron Rabinowitz, the other correspondent in the Wiki Letter exchange with Andy Lewis.

..... But I think Grace will cancel last minute. There is a reason why their stance has always been 'no debate'.

That's never been Lavery's stance, as far as I can tell. It's more "as much exposure for me as possible, please, so I can say more outrageous things and get away with it".

My money's on it going ahead, with bizarre antics following.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

If Lavery does cancel does Lavery have to repay the hire costs? These things are quite costly so bar exigent circumstances it's very bad form to withdraw. I've no idea what insurance arrangements can be made.

I hope beyond hope that if grace does cancel there will be another willing participant to step in at the last minute.

There are many many commentators happy to rip apart women's rights unchallenged, but will any step up to take Grace's place if need be!?

Owen Jones
Munroe bergdoft
India willoughby
Jamila jameel
Ash sarkar

How about Bridget Christie?

But there will be enough really amazing women there to make it a worth while event and maybe some intelligent, thoughtful and articulate people from Grace's side who can put forward some questions?

@rabbitwoman but 3 on that list aren’t trans

[quote Dobedodo]@rabbitwoman but 3 on that list aren’t trans[/quote]
Ahh, yes, I do understand and conceed, but I am just imagining a last minute scenario....

Just went to have a look what Grace is saying about this on Twitter.

• slagging off Unherd and hoping to find a way to share the content for free
• referring to the event as “enemy territory” and warning followers that attendees will be “hateful people”
• the attached screenshot……don’t really have words for that! Obviously a completely appropriate thing to say publicly, that they plan to use sexually explicit material to prepare their mindset for a public discussion on women’s rights.

It doesn’t really come across like Grace is interested in finding any kind of way forward, just in having a public scrap. For someone who chose their own name…..was it ironic?

Sorry, screenshot

Katy monty might do it.

@Cwenthryth

Just went to have a look what Grace is saying about this on Twitter.

• slagging off Unherd and hoping to find a way to share the content for free
• referring to the event as “enemy territory” and warning followers that attendees will be “hateful people”
• the attached screenshot……don’t really have words for that! Obviously a completely appropriate thing to say publicly, that they plan to use sexually explicit material to prepare their mindset for a public discussion on women’s rights.

It doesn’t really come across like Grace is interested in finding any kind of way forward, just in having a public scrap. For someone who chose their own name…..was it ironic?

Ugh. This person just makes my skin crawl. Immature, bad faith, seedy as all hell. Yet a professor? Dread to think what sort of stunts they have in mind. All power to HJ.

referring to the event as “enemy territory” and warning followers that attendees will be “hateful people”

Then why don't they buy up all the tickets?

..... also, why not just blast HJ out of the water with all their excellent, evidence based arguments backed up with research and data?

Huh?

Isn’t it telling that no one is worrying about Helen being a no-show? The gender critical stance definitely has more steadfast, professional advocates. If we really represent such a tiny, tiny minority view then surely TW should have the upper hand in these debates? It would be like debating a flat Earther. Bring your evidence and arguments, Grace. Let’s hear them. I’d love some straight answers.