Scottish census decision

[IsitM]

"The Scottish Court of Session has ruled in favour of the Scottish Government in the judicial review of guidance to accompany "the sex question” in the 2022 Scottish census

We are disappointed with the judgment and will be requesting an urgent appeal"

From FPFW

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1494315619877109781?s=20&t=3b061zOq4q3XIBtz7MWV5A

Judgement here:

www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2022csoh20.pdf?sfvrsn=9a4944d9_1

Ffs more fundraising then

Yes they are going to appeal

Didn't the same thing happen with the English census? Was all very last-min if I remember correctly.

Anyone explain in non legal language why it has failed?

Based on a quick scan the judge seems to be saying that there is no clear legal rule that the word sex means only biological sex. Therefore, it is not a breach of the 1920 Act to contemplate that sex may encompass gender identity.

This is not a detailed review and his position may be more nuanced.

I’d like this to go all the way to the Supreme Court to get some U.K. wide guidance.

This seems to be the key bit:
In the modern age, where social change has meant that such issues are much more openly and widely discussed and debated, I would find it impos sible to find that the word “sex” in a statute enabling the general population to be asked questions for the wide and general purposes for which a census is conducted falls to be regarded as restricted in the sense for which the petitioner contends sex, sex recognised by law, or self; rathe r, I would accept the suggestion that biological identified (or “lived”) sex as at the date of the census are all capable of being comprehended within the word

Only skimmed it, but the main arguments seem to be:

• there's no universal definition of sex (eg biological Vs legal Vs 'lived' whatever that means)
• the original wording of the Scottish census, in which people were asked to state their sex "including gender identity" clearly shows that the government intended gender identity to be encompassed in the word sex
• the meanings of words change over time
• English and Scottish legislation is different
• Asking a follow up question about a trans identity gives more complete information (eg if your sex is male and you are trans you must be a trans man ... I think ... Which is confusing)

Will get out my shovel for the appeal fund!

FFS.

I am very confused by the desire for there to be only one category - and that if you identify as a woman you tick that. But if you're a transwoman, that surely can't be in your best interests? How can you target funds for transwomen if you don't know how many there are?

Same with crime stats. We hear that trans identified people are murdered at a rate of knots then we hear that actually, no they aren't (since 2012? can't remember when the last one was - be clear one is one too many, but the same goes for all murders) and then we can't tell anyway because they have been logged as women (or men for transmen)

I am finding it very difficult to wrap my head around.
Why not have a box for sex one for gender and have done with it? what am i missing?

Gah, how annoying for Dr Nic. She's so on it, though, thank goodness for her.

So sex can mean anything, no one knows what it means, so what the hell?

Fgs, a toddler can figure it out. Batshit. Batshit on crack.

No legal definition?

Bollocks. That should be am easy task to overrule simply by pointing out how the census data is used and how this decision will totally fuck up all sorts of medical planning etc via the ONS

But, as common sense is itself transphobic, I doubt that will happen.

Still, the ONS will have fun. No more UK or GB wide data will be available. And who knows what this will do to any plans the devolved government have for specific cohorts of people?

Frankly if no one knows (apparently) what sex means and just make up whatever feels right at the time then why should anyone waste time filling out any part of the census based on reality? Nothing means anything, everything is feels, I earn 3 million pounds a minute, work two hours a week, own three unicorns, am four years old and live in Edinburgh castle.

Wtf are we bothering to pay taxes for?

@Brefugee

I am very confused by the desire for there to be only one category - and that if you identify as a woman you tick that. But if you're a transwoman, that surely can't be in your best interests? How can you target funds for transwomen if you don't know how many there are?

Same with crime stats. We hear that trans identified people are murdered at a rate of knots then we hear that actually, no they aren't (since 2012? can't remember when the last one was - be clear one is one too many, but the same goes for all murders) and then we can't tell anyway because they have been logged as women (or men for transmen)

I am finding it very difficult to wrap my head around.
Why not have a box for sex one for gender and have done with it? what am i missing?

Quite simply because this isn't what they care about. They care about making people, mostly women, compliant by force with their fictional view of the world.

FFS

Frankly if no one knows (apparently) what sex means and just make up whatever feels right at the time then why should anyone waste time filling out any part of the census based on reality?

That really.

Ffs.

What 'training' has the judge had?

@Artichokeleaves

Frankly if no one knows (apparently) what sex means and just make up whatever feels right at the time then why should anyone waste time filling out any part of the census based on reality? Nothing means anything, everything is feels, I earn 3 million pounds a minute, work two hours a week, own three unicorns, am four years old and live in Edinburgh castle.

Wtf are we bothering to pay taxes for?

Agreed, pre the UK census court case I was willing to do similar. If it's all feelz and nothing concrete then why not i. Make everyone in your household a woman, include any pets and ii. Make the rest of it up too. Tick random boxes, any free text boxes ignore or fill in with Lorem ipsum or your life story, whichever takes your fancy.

Fuck

@Lovelyricepudding

What 'training' has the judge had?

Maya talks about this frequently. Unless we know the content of the training that the judges have we're operating in the dark.

And wasn't the FOI,and other requests, denied because because because... Judiciary?

Unless we know the content of the training that the judges have we're operating in the dark.

It seems the first task of a claim entry must be to try and second guess what this may be and try and prove it is nonsense without the judge ruling that doing so is irrelevant to the case.

Any idea when that FOI case reports?

Claim entry = claimant

@Lovelyricepudding

What 'training' has the judge had?

Indeed. Suspect that training judges in ignoring facts, science and reality is critical when installing an upside down, fact free, dangerous world.