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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish census decision

244 replies

IsitM · 17/02/2022 14:26

"The Scottish Court of Session has ruled in favour of the Scottish Government in the judicial review of guidance to accompany "the sex question” in the 2022 Scottish census

We are disappointed with the judgment and will be requesting an urgent appeal"

From FPFW

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1494315619877109781?s=20&t=3b061zOq4q3XIBtz7MWV5A

OP posts:
Lovelyricepudding · 17/02/2022 16:49

@SamphiretheStickerist

And wasn't the FOI,and other requests, denied because because because... Judiciary?
I understood it was denied because the judicial college, or whatever it was called, had been named explicitly in the FOI legislation as covered but then they changed their name.
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 17/02/2022 16:55

@SamphiretheStickerist

And wasn't the FOI,and other requests, denied because because because... Judiciary?
It was to do with crucial dates to do with when the Judiciary training appeared to be covered and FOI-able but they've now discovered that they weren't really because of a re-organisation.

Similarly the Ministry of Justices argues that information on the training of judges by lobby groups must remain secret. In the information tribunal they argued, astoundingly, that trust in judicial independence requires that information on training of judges by lobby groups be kept from the public.

Their defence relies on cleaving to the letter of the law: the FOI Act includes a list of public bodies that must provide access to information. When it was drawn up parliament included the body that trains judges. At the time it was called the Judicial Studies Board (JSB). That name remains in the Act, but in 2011 the JSB “evolved” into the Judicial College, changing its name and some aspects of its governance. The Ministry argues that because the FOI Act does not contain the words “Judicial College” but only “Judicial Studies Board”, the training of judges is intended to be outside of freedom of information.

They say that “sex” in law should be read as “self-identified gender” and that “woman” includes males

This insistence that the words “Judicial Studies Board” can’t possibly be read as the name of its successor organisation is ironic when Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence train judges and civil servants to treat the language of the law in relation to fundamental concepts as flexible, out of date and even offensive. They say that “sex” in law should be read as “self-identified gender” and that “woman” includes males, and “men” includes females. “Mother” should be avoided altogether.

thecritic.co.uk/who-judges-the-judges/

Some useful material here:

sex-matters.org/where-sex-matters/the-legal-system/

Swear · 17/02/2022 16:57

I don't understand how training by Stonewall or similar can make judges believe that black is white. I get that many judges probably aren't excessively bright, but all the same. I suspect it's more to do with career advancement or something.

howonearthdidwegethere · 17/02/2022 16:58

It's a separate institution in Scotland: the Judicial Institute. And a separate Equal Treatment Bench Book (which is just as bad as the version used in England and Wales).

t.co/mP4IpD3VKI

This one openly credits the Scottish Trans Alliance for helping with the section on gender identity.

FemaleAndLearning · 17/02/2022 17:01

I suppose some words just don't need a legal definition because noone thought we'd ever be in a situation where people didn't know what sex meant.

Lovelyricepudding · 17/02/2022 17:05

What is the point of the sex question when sex no longer has any meaning? The only justification they could give was that most people would use the dictionary definition so it doesn't matter if a few don't. But if the dictionary definition is irrelevant then why ask the question at all? What are they trying to find out from it?

ScrollingLeaves · 17/02/2022 17:12

“How do I answer this question?
If you are transgender the answer you give can be different from what is on your
birthcertificate. YoudonotneedaGenderRecognitionCertificate(GRC).
If you are non-binary or you are not sure how to answer, you could use the sex registered on your official documents, such as your passport.
A voluntary question about trans status or history will follow if you are aged 16 or over. Youcanrespondasnon-binaryinthatquestion.”

If you are trans gender you can choose to answer the question about what ‘sex’ you are as being different from what is on your birth certificate.

So, if I have understood this correctly, they now have something written in law that means ‘sex’ and gender are interchangeable and indistinguishable.

Also, there will be a discrepancy in public information between the numbers of each sex born and those in society.

howonearthdidwegethere · 17/02/2022 17:12

Now highly likely trans people will answer the sex question in line with their gender identity and not bother to answer the separate trans question (which is voluntary anyway). It will show there are no trans people in Scotland meaning that there is no need for any bespoke services for them, e.g. gender identity clinics.

Rodedooda · 17/02/2022 17:13

I can't see how this benefits ANYONE Shock

Datun · 17/02/2022 17:23

@Brefugee

I am very confused by the desire for there to be only one category - and that if you identify as a woman you tick that. But if you're a transwoman, that surely can't be in your best interests? How can you target funds for transwomen if you don't know how many there are?

Same with crime stats. We hear that trans identified people are murdered at a rate of knots then we hear that actually, no they aren't (since 2012? can't remember when the last one was - be clear one is one too many, but the same goes for all murders) and then we can't tell anyway because they have been logged as women (or men for transmen)

I am finding it very difficult to wrap my head around.
Why not have a box for sex one for gender and have done with it? what am i missing?

Well, according to transactivists during the England and Wales census, it was about validation. They want to say they are women, and that's the end of it. They couldn't give a shiny shit about any kind of statistical analysis of trans people. It's just the validation.
Datun · 17/02/2022 17:27

If sex has no meaning, then what happens to the equality act? Sex is a protected characteristic. And so is sexual orientation, based on it.

So women can no longer sue for sex discrimination, given that no one knows what the fucking hell it means??

I'm actually struggling to accept that they genuinely have said this. That they don't know what the meaning of sex is, because it can be your 'lived sex'. Well what the fuck does lived sex mean? Are they going to have a description of that?

Can I have a lived race? And a lived age?

It's absolute lunacy.

Artichokeleaves · 17/02/2022 17:27

@Rodedooda

I can't see how this benefits ANYONE Shock
The aim is chaos and destruction and rampant misogyny. That's it. That's all. There's no logic, there's no thought. Welcome to 'queer politics'.
Datun · 17/02/2022 17:27

And thirdly, yes, I bloody hope Nic starts a crowd funder. I'll be digging for bloody England (ironically).

Datun · 17/02/2022 17:29

And didn't the EHRC say they shouldn't be doing that because sex has an actual fucking definition in legislation already???

Artichokeleaves · 17/02/2022 17:31

Can I have a lived race? And a lived age?

I honestly plan to have anything I feel like.

This entire agenda like NBism relies on everyone else nicely getting into boxes and providing service so that special others can do what they want and be different as they wish.

I'm not an enabler. I'm not co dependent. I'm not a fucking service animal. If anyone can make it up and that's legal, then everyone can and why not? The data is going to be a useless waste of taxpayer money anyway.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/02/2022 17:33

@Datun

And thirdly, yes, I bloody hope Nic starts a crowd funder. I'll be digging for bloody England (ironically).
Their bank details are on their website home page...
Swear · 17/02/2022 19:17

You have to hope this goes to the Supreme Court. What else can you do?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/02/2022 19:40

Does anyone know when we'll hear if an appeal has been granted?

Lovelyricepudding · 17/02/2022 19:47

The Equality Act defines Sex as male or female.

Terfydactyl · 17/02/2022 19:55

@Lovelyricepudding

The Equality Act defines Sex as male or female.
The words male and female no longer have any meaning or definition though. Because apparently you just say you are and magically you are

I think the whole of Scotland should make this census a shit show.
Dont fight it, fill it in as you feel like, have the mouse fill out the form that only a mouse lives there, or add in so many people that your house would burst at the seams, make the population of Scotland 3 times bigger than it actually is, if theres a way, get more forms and make up some addresses, make ages random, say your children claim their pension, grandad does a full time job at 96 years old. Go bloody wild with it.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 17/02/2022 19:59

Even though I think the judge is fundamentally wrong I do think the problem is wider than a rogue judge. Parliament has been sloppy in its drafting and sex and gender have been used interchangeably at times e.g. you are looking for sex discrimination in pay by assessing the gender pay gap.

I think there has to be a real push to ensure that all legislation refers to the protected characteristic of sex (not gender) and that sex means biological sex.

Ibizan · 17/02/2022 20:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Over600Ecalypts · 17/02/2022 20:09

Well, I hope FPFW get the appeal. I'll be supporting them all the way.

nevercis · 17/02/2022 20:13

How can they write things like "if you are non-binary" as though it is any more than an identification like goth, punk or mod or rocker?

How, how on earth have we come to this point where serious organisations like the census (and others) validate this?

Do they actually believe that someone who says they are 'non-binary' is truly neither male or female, or both male and female.

Please, please can the grown ups come back.

Datun · 17/02/2022 23:16

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Even though I think the judge is fundamentally wrong I do think the problem is wider than a rogue judge. Parliament has been sloppy in its drafting and sex and gender have been used interchangeably at times e.g. you are looking for sex discrimination in pay by assessing the gender pay gap.

I think there has to be a real push to ensure that all legislation refers to the protected characteristic of sex (not gender) and that sex means biological sex.

The thing is, the the judge wasn't mixing up sex and gender.

He said sex and he meant sex. He just said he couldn't define it.

He said: “I would accept the suggestion that biological sex, sex recognised by law, or self-identified (or “lived”) sex as at the date of the census are all capable of being comprehended within the word [sex].”

Sex is anything you want it to be. Therefore it's nothing. It's absolutely meaningless.

For gods sake. I despair sometimes.