Scottish census decision

[IsitM]

"The Scottish Court of Session has ruled in favour of the Scottish Government in the judicial review of guidance to accompany "the sex question” in the 2022 Scottish census

We are disappointed with the judgment and will be requesting an urgent appeal"

From FPFW

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1494315619877109781?s=20&t=3b061zOq4q3XIBtz7MWV5A

The Scottish court has refused them the right to appeal to the Supreme Court, so they'll have to apply to the Supreme Court itself to be allowed to appeal. Sounds like an uphill struggle. Which seems mad, as it's so important, and the Scottish decision makes no sense to me, anyway. Is the Scottish court saying that if you really mean "sex" you should use the words "biological sex"? Wouldn't the TAs then attack those words? Surely "sex" has always been used in the sense of "biological sex"?

I'm 32 or 101 years old, etc.

Well, I bet the 1920 census act (or whatever it was) didn't define "year". So, there's no reason to not use your own definition there...

I thought laws had to be read with words having the meaning in use at the time they were written?

I hope they do apply to appeal to the supreme Court. It seems such an important principle.

Re: when did “gender” come to mean ‘sec’
from the on-line etymological dictionary:

www.etymonline.com/word/gender

“The "male-or-female sex" sense is attested in English from early 15c. As sex (n.) took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be the usual English word for "sex of a human being," in which use it was at first regarded as colloquial or humorous. Later often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963. Gender-bender is from 1977, popularized from 1980, with reference to pop star David Bowie.“

Does anyone have a top quality real dictionary to look it up in?

I meant real in the sense of a physical one filled with details for every word ( or full on line Oxford English Dictionary.)

Are ‘Gender’ and ‘Sex’ now defined as having separate meanings in law elsewhere? I thought they were somewhere.

@NecessaryScene

I'm 32 or 101 years old, etc.

Well, I bet the 1920 census act (or whatever it was) didn't define "year". So, there's no reason to not use your own definition there...

Indeed, I'm pretty sure it didn't define "child" either and some certain people are transage so knock yourselves out with this whole definition of words thing. They can in fact mean whatever you say they mean with no actual written definition, so it's all in your head, which then segues into "voices in your head are real" and they too have names, "genders" addresses. 🤷‍♀️

In the Times today (and comments open, so far at least):

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ce519962-968c-11ec-9aec-82f0032d4cd3?shareToken=01416af48ff32287f53ac374f42b36f0

Thanks Ig

Scotsman
www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/we-need-to-consider-wider-impact-of-gender-self-id-susan-dalgety-3586191

outline.com/GSZeva

"We recognise that in 1920 gender and sex would probably have been understood by most people in rather more simplistic terms than nowadays, but we have no reason to think that the term sex would not, even then, have been treated as synonymous with gender.”

Because loads of women were able to vote by identifying as men... oh wait!

And this:

*"We see no reason to think that the fact that it may be necessary to apply a biological definition of sex in prescribed circumstances involving status, proof of identity or other important rights mandates that a similar approach must be adopted when the issue does not involve these matters."

What do they think the census is for?

[quote Igneococcus]In the Times today (and comments open, so far at least):

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ce519962-968c-11ec-9aec-82f0032d4cd3?shareToken=01416af48ff32287f53ac374f42b36f0[/quote]
Thank you , see the comments are turned off now, I wonder why...? 🤔

“We recognise that in 1920 gender and sex would probably have been understood by most people in rather more simplistic terms than nowadays, but we have no reason to think that the term sex would not, even then, have been treated as synonymous with gender.”

“We have no reason to think that….,,,?”

Surely there may well be reason to think that in 1920 sex meant biological sex, and if for people in 1920 sex and gender were synonymous, that would mean that both meant biological sex.

Was an etymologist consulted by the judges? I don’t think so.

Why have the judges come to this decision?

Institutional capture.

thecritic.co.uk/who-judges-the-judges/

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/training_provided_to_judges_by_s

James Mullholland, the writer of the article, is using conflating language himself isn’t he?

“Lawyers for Fair Play for Women argued that the terms of the 1920 Census Act meant that people had to answer the question on sex based on the gender given to them at birth.“

“The gender given to them at birth” ( my italics.

Shouldn’t it say. “means that people had to answer the question the question on sex based on the sex they were born”?

I happen to be somewhere in a room with a Concise Oxford Dictionary 1982 which has the primary meaning of Gender as a “grammatical classification” masculine, feminine and neutral; then “property of belonging to such a class”; and only at the end of the entry, as “colloquially as one’s sex”.
And an Oxford Students Dictionary 1988 which has Gender as a *”(grammatical) a grouping of nouns and pronouns into classes ( masculine, feminine and neuter.”

n.b. the Student’s Dictionary does not even mention gender colloquially meaning sex.

Quite clearly these judges couldn’t be bothered to check out what had been meant in 1920.

“3 What is your sex?
Female Male

4 Do you consider yourself to be trans, or have a trans history?
This question is voluntary
Answer only if you are aged 16 or over
Trans is a term used to describe people whose gender is not the same as the sex they were registered at birth
No
Yes, please describe your trans status (for example, non-binary, trans man, trans woman”

If they think ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ are synonymous, why is it that the form itself differentiates between the two: sex registered at birth as opposed to gender?

Bumping this thread. Fair Play for Women are absolutely going for it. They will need all the vegetables they can get.

Nicola Sturgeon is facing serious opposition to the reforms meant to be published this week. Nic Williams is being extensively quoted with her fears over what the reforms mean for women.

Any turnips, parsnips, carrots, or even the odd pea will help.

Please request paper copies of the census. Do not fill it in online. More information will be released soon on what should be filled in.

twitter.com/womenspeakscot1/status/1498317187848810497?s=20&t=Z9vHKzo5INWuJLRQlm0YiQ

Every household will get a letter soon and it gives you a code to request a paper version and a Braille version if needed.