Feminism: Sex & gender discussions
UK Physios
Calyx72 · 11/02/2022 20:56
Please sign into CSP and look at the new iCSP discussion "Stonewall and the CSP"
A great thread beginning and agreement that stonewall are problematic and women's rights are being overlapped by male rights
Then a HUGE ESSAY by a TRA
Calyx72 · 18/02/2022 10:25
It's been pulled.
"The CSP opposes transphobia www.csp.org.uk/frontline/article/promoting-equality-diversity-inclusion and we cannot allow comments which undermine the legitimacy of trans women as women, or which cause hurt or alarm to trans members, to remain on the iCSP member networks.
We apologise for not identifying this thread earlier and would encourage members who see anything of concern to raise them with us promptly, as we do not have the capacity or systems to enable real time moderation of comments.
We do recognise that this approach may be challenging for some members. We appreciate that not all comments on this issue are transphobic, and some which are experienced as such will not have been intended to be so.
We would encourage anyone who disagrees with our stance to approach this issue with a spirit of enquiry and seek to listen to the lived experiences of trans women. We have more in common than divides us."
So no discussion allowed from those of us who have (supposedly protected in law) gender critical beliefs.
NecessaryScene · 18/02/2022 10:30
we cannot allow comments which undermine the legitimacy of trans women as women, or which cause hurt or alarm to trans members
But if you want to undermine the legitimacy of women, or cause hurt or alarm to female members, fill your boots.
We have more in common than divides us.
Even more true of men and "transwomen".
Why do they keep trying to divide men from transwomen? 
DomesticatedZombie · 18/02/2022 10:38
We have more in common than divides us.
Even more true of men and "transwomen".
Yes. The entire movement is this huge rejection of 'male' and 'men', which remains a unique category in that it is both vilified yet somehow untouchable. Almost seems to conspire to solidify and cement a sex hierarchy. Instead of celebrating the variety and difference across sexes - instead of genuinely celebrating the diversity of 'gender', you could even say.
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/02/2022 12:45
I'm a physio. I've been trying to find other members who are concerned about the SW influence.
You know our conference had make-your-own-avatar, but you couldn't make one with a disability? FFS.
There are groups of nurses, midwives and medics - they have written to their governing bodies.
If we want a group of physios to discuss what I missed on iCSP, then how do we do it?
As an aside to approach this issue with a spirit of enquiry and seek to listen to the lived experiences of trans women - not trans men, then?
Calyx72 · 18/02/2022 13:23
I think we would need to discuss anonymously, off the iCSP board and probably off any NHS / work related platforms as well.
I have just seen the judgment on the 'Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) act 2018 which ForWomenScotland have tweeted and basically it says re: Equality Act, TWATW!
www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=6dda9e64-287e-4aef-be4f-7f4a47710690
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/02/2022 13:37
Calyx72 · 18/02/2022 15:29
Yeah one I know is fundraising for Stonewall
However a few I know are GC like me. We would be happy working alongside a trans person (we only have single toilets which are unisex and a single disability one) or treating trans folk, using preferred pronouns. But single sex wards (and prisons and preferred sex for carers giving personal care) etc need to remain sex based in our opinion. And Stonewall are against that. And we can’t discuss it without risking being sanctioned/sacked!
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/02/2022 15:53
I did work with three trans physios, I don't want to say much about that because they all had a really hard time from the press.
I have family members and friends who are trans.
I'm as bleeding heart liberal as anyone who goes to work in health.
But, I am a woman and I understand trauma and I don't think it is reasonable to put vulnerable women into situations in health which are detrimental to them. I won't do it.
I don't wear a rainbow lanyard because I also don't wear one showing that I speak Punjabi, or that I have BSL, or that I have experience working with people with learning disabilities, or that I'm dementia friendly, or that I've got a good understanding of Islam, or any of the other protected characteristics.
If there were lanyards to make those people feel safe then maybe I would wear one.
Calyx72 · 18/02/2022 16:47
[quote vivariumvivariumsvivaria]@Calyx72 are you able to share what the post was about? Was it about the Stonewall podcast, or the open letter to the RCM or similar?
I don't want to get anyone into trouble - but I'm interested in the themes. Very sorry I missed the thread![/quote]
Hiya, I am annoyed at myself that I didn't copy it somewhere as I should have known it would be whisked away.
The original poster (anonymous) asked whether we should be concerned that the CSP are paying and taking advice from Stonewall given that SW have been shown to misrepresent laws (or something like that).
Someone asked why they would be concerned,
Original poster replied with a really well written post, nothing that could be construed as transphobic but putting forward the points that Stonewall may have previously been for LGB but now appear to be pushing T ideology (I am possibly misremembering) and mentioned LGB Alliance in there, also Kathleen Stock and Maya Forstater and women's rights.
Someone replied (not anonymous but with a username) who was obviously a TRA with a long (very long) message just being patronising about the post, all the usual stuff and saying LGB Alliance are a hate group, Kathleen Stock and Maya Forstater are transphobes
I answered (anonymously) saying oh here we go, all the usual dismissiveness and saying LGBA are a hate group when they are obviously not. Mentioned women's rights and gender critical views being legally protected as per recent cases. TRA replied again saying GCs are transphobes and saying "concerns" brought up are obviously just transphobic views.
There had been a few more anonymous comments in the GC view and only the one TRA but then it was gone.
So basically a whole thread of various voices and one TRA; pulled and no comeback except to basically reframe our thinking.
Calyx72 · 18/02/2022 16:51
@northender
Thanks. I keep my GC views undercover IRL as I do not want to lose my career, this is all I ever wanted to do. Hoping the tide is turning with regard to Stonewall (all I can do is hope).
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/02/2022 17:26
Thanks for the summary, @Calyx72.
The thing that interests me is that Karen Middleton is not an idiot. I think her background was at the Dept of Health? She's got to be aware of the organisations leaving Stonewall and the trouble at universities.
I've been so tempted to just email her the Nolan Podcast and ask whether she thinks SW is good value for the money.
One voice is too easy to quash. The nurses and midwives had 400 signatures for this, anonymous, letter. I don't know what became of it, either. There must be a response by now?
womansplaceuk.org/2021/12/04/stonewall-nurses-and-midwives-speak-out/
HelloKeith · 18/02/2022 17:31
Surely a physio knows anatomy?
And surely a physio should recognise that when they work alone in a room with a patient who may be in a state of undress and/or vulnerable, that they need to really consider safeguarding - for them and their patients.
I believe I was assaulted by a male physio. Now that wasn't something I could identify out of.
Manderleyagain · 18/02/2022 17:55
Why don't you contact one of the other professional groups- eh there's one for ppl who work in birth/breastfeeding called 'with woman' and there's one for social workers. Ask them how they went about it and got the word out and what they do behind the scenes.
Calyx72 · 18/02/2022 19:08
[quote vivariumvivariumsvivaria]Thanks for the summary, @Calyx72.
The thing that interests me is that Karen Middleton is not an idiot. I think her background was at the Dept of Health? She's got to be aware of the organisations leaving Stonewall and the trouble at universities.
I've been so tempted to just email her the Nolan Podcast and ask whether she thinks SW is good value for the money.
One voice is too easy to quash. The nurses and midwives had 400 signatures for this, anonymous, letter. I don't know what became of it, either. There must be a response by now?
womansplaceuk.org/2021/12/04/stonewall-nurses-and-midwives-speak-out/[/quote]
That's great especially the comments.
I feel that 400 signatures is a bit disappointing but I completely understand as I would be wary to put my name on it due to the risk of comeback.
I will look to see if there has been a response published.
Calyx72 · 18/02/2022 19:12
@HelloKeith
And surely a physio should recognise that when they work alone in a room with a patient who may be in a state of undress and/or vulnerable, that they need to really consider safeguarding - for them and their patients.
I believe I was assaulted by a male physio. Now that wasn't something I could identify out of.
I am sorry that happened to you. I believe you could complain, I have seen judgements from tribunals in favour of the complainants in cases like this against male physios.
I understand if you don't feel you want to do that of course.
It's absolutely true about being vulnerable and in an undressed state. Safeguarding and basic common sense & dignity.
Calyx72 · 18/02/2022 19:13
@Manderleyagain
If and when I get my courage up that would be a good place to start thanks
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/02/2022 20:15
@HelloKeith
And surely a physio should recognise that when they work alone in a room with a patient who may be in a state of undress and/or vulnerable, that they need to really consider safeguarding - for them and their patients.
I believe I was assaulted by a male physio. Now that wasn't something I could identify out of.
I'm sorry too, @HelloKeith. If you want to follow it up then DM me and I'm happy to help. Though, I also understand if you'd rather just not.
Yes, it's the safeguarding that bothers me. Some physios get up close and personal, if we're assessing your back you'll be in your underwear bending and moving and we're peering at your body. It's quite different from nakedness during e.g. personal care, where the nurse will use sheets or towels to cover up the bits of you that aren't being attended to.
If you are self conscious or have been traumatised it's a big ask to bend over in your pants while someone stands behind you.
I'm very mindful of that. We can get a bit blasé about it, we look at bodies all the time and we're looking at the movement, not the body if that makes sense - but for the person, it can be a bit confronting. Safeguarding should be done and over done in our clinics.
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