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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

UK Physios

657 replies

Calyx72 · 11/02/2022 20:56

Please sign into CSP and look at the new iCSP discussion "Stonewall and the CSP"

A great thread beginning and agreement that stonewall are problematic and women's rights are being overlapped by male rights

Then a HUGE ESSAY by a TRA


OP posts:
SomePosters · 18/02/2022 20:18


I did work with three trans physios, I don't want to say much about that because they all had a really hard time from the press.

I have family members and friends who are trans.

I'm as bleeding heart liberal as anyone who goes to work in health.

But, I am a woman and I understand trauma and I don't think it is reasonable to put vulnerable women into situations in health which are detrimental to them. I won't do it.

I don't wear a rainbow lanyard because I also don't wear one showing that I speak Punjabi, or that I have BSL, or that I have experience working with people with learning disabilities, or that I'm dementia friendly, or that I've got a good understanding of Islam, or any of the other protected characteristics.

If there were lanyards to make those people feel safe then maybe I would wear one.

Why aren’t there though?

Im hat would be phenomenally useful
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/02/2022 20:34

Why aren't there lanyards showing what each NHS individual can offer anyone with any protected characteristic?

Because only Stonewall has created a protected characteristic. It's gender reassignment which is protected, not gender. Stonewall have, basically, made it up. That was the finding of the court when a uni (I'm trying to remember, might have this wrong) was given incorrect advice. The judge said Stonewall had advised as they would like the law to be and not as the law actually is.

Who cares about people with learning disabilities? Who cares how many NHS employees have basic makaton? Who cares whether a scared, unwell patient without English has someone who's able to say "hello, I will look after you, we have a translator coming to help" in their language? Who cares whether someone in their late 80s who's taken their husband to A+E has her needs understood and someone offers her a chair to sit on while they wait for triage?

No one. No one cares about these people, or any of the other reasons - and if I was cynical enough to say it I'd say that's because none of those groups make money.

Stonewall gets what, 7m a year? They could change everything for trans health if they wanted to. They could fund research, they could build clinics, they could train staff - isn't it interesting that the MOST they do is sell rainbow lanyards and try to steal other people's rights?

I'd like to have a drink with Nancy Kelly. I don't think she'd enjoy it, but I have a list of things I'd really to chat to her about. I'd hope Ruth Hunt was free too. We'd have a grand wee chin wag.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/02/2022 20:39

I agree with you, by the way, @SomePosters. If I saw lanyards showing that someone had a link to say, Polish then I'd be able to ask "how do I say "good morning" in Polish?" as we pass on the corridor.

I'd very quickly figure out the basics of most languages hello/goodbye/thank you just by moving around the hospital.

It would transform building therapeutic relationships, and we have a huge resource with the diversity that exists in the NHS workforce. Which is totally unrecognised.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/02/2022 12:53

Why aren't there lanyards showing what each NHS individual can offer anyone with any protected characteristic?

This is a great idea.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 19/02/2022 13:05

I KNOW! I'd really love to see lanyards weighing down staff's necks like athlete's showing off their gold medals at the Olympics.

It could be anything and from anyone - so a surgeon notices her office cleaner has a lanyard that says she's "trauma informed" and they have a chat and the surgeon learns something useful for clinical practice about dignity and privacy and maybe that explains why that nervy woman failed to return for her appointment. The cleaner sees the clinic, she knows what changes would make it easier for women who e.g. need to see the door at all times. The surgeon's been busy learning how to surge, she hasn't got insight into the nuance and won't realise the cleaner's skill base.

Who'd organise the lanyards? Well, the individual charities, I guess, they could agree a colour and individuals buy the lanyard because they know they have a skill which applies to a group who are protected.

I think the other groups should be running their own inclusion schemes. The Stonewall model is brilliant. It's become a source of harm, but it's principle is brilliant.

Calyx72 · 20/02/2022 08:18
OP posts:
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 20/02/2022 09:08

I expect that the Judicial Review in Scotland might be helpful for him, even if it's Scots Law?,scottish-government-lose-court-battle-over-redefinition-of-women

I think this means that in Scotland, TWANW. And so, my clinic gets to maintain single sex spaces.

While, this paper, means my clinic gets to use sex based language (article, I'll find the paper)

Concerns about affirmation model

Anyone know whether a physio has got into trouble over this stuff? Baroness Nicholson said she had evidence of 2 nurses who'd been sacked.

Calyx72 · 20/02/2022 09:42

I haven't heard of any yet but watching
Thanks Vivarium

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DomesticatedZombie · 20/02/2022 09:45

The JR was specifically for public board representation.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 20/02/2022 16:24

@DomesticatedZombie, must admit, the law and political processes are not something I can easy get my pretty little head around.

I'm looking forward to reading some analysis by clever people of the JR findings next week.

I'm hoping that if we have a finding that TWANW in one area then it will allow debate for other areas - like whether my work loo is only for females or not. And whether if we are making my work loo uni sex we should be obliged to do an impact assessment of the females who use that loo.

DomesticatedZombie · 20/02/2022 18:02

there was a decent article by Gordon Dangerfield ... it was encouraging. He's a Scottish solicitor. On another thread somewhere ...

DomesticatedZombie · 20/02/2022 18:02

whether my work loo is only for females or not. this is covered already by H&S and building regs. As I understand it.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 20/02/2022 18:23

It is in principle, @DomesticatedZombie, but not in practice.

I've had a long, ongoing debate about this with senior management. I am determined to keep patient toilets single sex because of safeguarding, trauma informed care and the needs of our female patients who have faith based needs.

It's taken up rather a lot of my time, considering there is no basis in law for the change that my rainbow clad colleague is keen on...

DomesticatedZombie · 20/02/2022 19:14

Yes, this is what seems to be happening. All the laws set up to protect women are conveniently ignorable just as soon as some male finds they don't suit him.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 28/02/2022 15:05

Been looking at the CSP site about inclusion.

There's an article called "How to be an ally" by the LGBTQIA+ network which recommends that we follow Travis Alabanza for their "musings on gender, art and life"

Not their musings on girls trying on clothes in Top Shop, then?

Calyx72 · 28/02/2022 15:38

I am too annoyed to look more at it since it said they have funded it more. They have more staff and more funding around diversity and inclusion but when GC views and questions are asked about our money going to Stonewall, we get shut down

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vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 28/02/2022 15:39

Only diversity of rainbow and inclusion of glitter, too, by the look of it.

AFAIK there are other issues which fall under EDI remit...

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/03/2022 11:20

This trans care course launched on the 28th, is free, and has been part written by a physio - who's been qualified for 6 months and seems to be involved in the LGBTQIA+ group.

I haven't done the course yet. I'm waiting til I'm in the right mood.

Curious that this is written entirely by students and newly qualified HCPs. Apart from two Inclusion People who seem to be supervising the whole thing. I'm fascinated that there isn't input from an endocrinologist, psychiatrist, gender clinic - bet there's not anyone on the list of "educators" with much clinical experience.

FFS. This is all worse than I thought.

RadFizz · 02/03/2022 18:12


Been looking at the CSP site about inclusion.

There's an article called "How to be an ally" by the LGBTQIA+ network which recommends that we follow Travis Alabanza for their "musings on gender, art and life"

Not their musings on girls trying on clothes in Top Shop, then?

There's also an article about "people" going through menopause which is not only illogical (as it mentions IWD), but badly written too.
RadFizz · 12/04/2022 19:35

The thing that interests me is that Karen Middleton is not an idiot. I think her background was at the Dept of Health? She's got to be aware of the organisations leaving Stonewall and the trouble at universities.

I've been so tempted to just email her the Nolan Podcast and ask whether she thinks SW is good value for the money.

Rather late to this but @Calyx72 or @vivariumvivariumsvivaria did either of you contact the CEO to ask her about this? The organisation's entire management team and council look to be completely captured by this, judging by their Twitter presence.

Calyx72 · 12/04/2022 19:42

Hiya @RadFizz no, I haven't done anything irl purely because I believe I would be negatively impacted if I asked about Stonewall with any hint of concern or criticism Sad

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RadFizz · 13/04/2022 08:07

@Calyx72 I honestly think management there haven't got a clue and are blindly following bad advice. There is a minority of very vocal pro-trans members but I suspect the silent majority will just walk away.

Lovelyricepudding · 13/04/2022 09:21

What needs to be done is attend AGMS, get on the board of these professional organisations. I don't know about CSP but often very few people turn up to these things or apply for these positions which is how they have been able to be captured in the first place. Online meetings often don't help as question are moderated (censored).

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 15/04/2022 19:44

I agree, @RadFizz.

We need to find other members who have concerns, but, like you, @Calyx72, the ones I've spoken to have worries about speaking up.

Which says something about diversity of opinion at the EDI.

northender · 20/04/2022 20:33

Just catching up on this & wondering if I missed something on twitter. Last week there was a tweet from a physio re setting up an NHS physio service for trans people as they said they couldn't rely on colleagues to be sympathetic or understanding.

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