Page 9 | Dare I ask - the trans issue?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2022 21:12

I'm not sure that that is correct based on what I've read today? Obviously happy to learn more about it but I've read that identifying sex from bone isn't 100% accurate (though it is very very high)

Do you have a link? Not about bones, about DNA, because the understanding that every cell in the body has a sex is mine too. Intersex conditions are sexed, the only time it would be ambiguous for the whole person from testing DNA would be if there was some form of both sex chimerism with two lots of DNA.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2022 21:14

What was that?

Sorry, it wasn't clear in a fast moving thread. The GRA exemption for primogeniture.

DrSbaitso · 04/02/2022 21:18

@Ereshkigalangcleg

What was that?

Sorry, it wasn't clear in a fast moving thread. The GRA exemption for primogeniture.

Is that in Scotland for male-line titles or are there other cases too?

VestofAbsurdity · 04/02/2022 21:20

But I don't think that should stop someone born a man from living as a woman, if that would make them happier, and I'm happy to call them what they like.

I find a lot of their version of living as a woman, i.e., what they think a woman is, looks like, lives like fucking insulting.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2022 21:23

Is that in Scotland for male-line titles or are there other cases too?

I'm not sure, or if it has ever been an IRL issue. They were keen to provide for it at the time though.

crazyjinglist · 04/02/2022 21:27

I'm not sure that that is correct based on what I've read today? Obviously happy to learn more about it but I've read that identifying sex from bone isn't 100% accurate (though it is very very high)

Do you have a link for that?

SliceOfCakeCupOfTea · 04/02/2022 21:27

@crazyjinglist

I'm not sure that that is correct based on what I've read today? Obviously happy to learn more about it but I've read that identifying sex from bone isn't 100% accurate (though it is very very high)

Do you have a link for that?

Ooo I think I posted some further up the thread. Let me look

Rheopecticfluid · 04/02/2022 21:28

@twomumsonebump

Transphobic adjective Having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Y'all are just transphobic but won't admit to it.

Now that's a distinctive posting style. I feel like we've met before. ☺️

DrSbaitso · 04/02/2022 21:30

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm not sure that that is correct based on what I've read today? Obviously happy to learn more about it but I've read that identifying sex from bone isn't 100% accurate (though it is very very high)

Do you have a link? Not about bones, about DNA, because the understanding that every cell in the body has a sex is mine too. Intersex conditions are sexed, the only time it would be ambiguous for the whole person from testing DNA would be if there was some form of both sex chimerism with two lots of DNA.

Yes, the preferred term now is "with a difference of sexual development", because that's what it is. People with DSDs are definably one sex or the other. There are some XY DSDs in which it may be better to raise the child as female (people with Swyer's syndrome ARE female; they have no male genitals and all female parts except functioning ovaries) but the fact remains that this particular variation of development occurred along the XY line. (That's why sex is defined as which gametes your reproductive class is capable of producing: sperm or ova. You may have a condition that interferes with your production of said gametes, but you're still in the sex class capable of it; such conditions, by nature, can occur only in one of the two sex classes. There's no medical issue in a male body that can't produce ova. And of course, in mammals, producing ova means your sex class is also designed to conceive and sustain a pregnancy, deliver young and lactate. Complex procedures that require a body that is significantly different to one that isn't designed to do any of this.)

There is also a clear consensus in the DSD community that they are sick of being exploited in this debate to "prove" that sex doesn't exist. Not only are DSDs irrelevant to the discussion, it's also a very hypocritical and dishonest line of reasoning. You can't problematise the concept of sex by exploiting DSDs and then suddenly know the difference when deciding which hormones to take or which sports category to enter.

SliceOfCakeCupOfTea · 04/02/2022 21:31

@crazyjinglist

I'm not sure that that is correct based on what I've read today? Obviously happy to learn more about it but I've read that identifying sex from bone isn't 100% accurate (though it is very very high)

Do you have a link for that?

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15567621/

crazyjinglist · 04/02/2022 21:32

Whether or not trans women are women, I am in the camp that believes they should be treated as women in society.

In what ways should they be 'treated as women'? How do you, in fact, 'treat someone as a woman'? I think some of the ways that women are treated are not really what TW are after.

Do you think that, for example, a biologically male person who identifies as a woman, but has sexually assaulted or raped girls or women should be treated as a woman by being put in a women's prison and by having their crimes recorded as having been committed by a woman?

Original poster

shoplifteroftheworld · 04/02/2022 21:36

@Lottapianos

No, you're not getting it wrong. It's not possible for anyone to change sex. Some people struggle with that fact, but it is a fact. Your sex has nothing to do with how you present yourself, what colours you like, your personality traits or your interests.

Join us on the Feminism board

I will thanks 😊

OP posts:

Original poster

shoplifteroftheworld · 04/02/2022 21:37

@slashlover

How do people feel about the 'trans women are women' idea?

OP, you've been here for several years, how can you NOT know how MN feels about itt?

Because I've only dipped in now and again

OP posts:

VestofAbsurdity · 04/02/2022 21:40

That poster was being snarky to you OP, ignore.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 04/02/2022 21:49

@FOJN

Was there a poll attached to the thread in AIBU?

Those things get bloody inconvenient if you're trying to push a narrative that its only 6 women on the feminist board who are concerned about the impact of self ID on women's rights. The polls always seem to show its the majority of posters on the thread, it's awkward so the treads are moved. Our external moderators are very report happy but they're not silencing women at all!

It's actually 6 white, middle class, middle aged women with half a dozen sock accounts each, shouting into a void. 😄🧦

And yet them seem utterly terrified of us speaking and are desperate to shut us down.

Every AIBU ends up with 2000+ votes with around 97% thinking gender identity ideology is nonsense, which is pretty much like the adults I know IRL now they are finally starting to catch up with what is actually been going on.

Scraggythang · 04/02/2022 22:00

“A friend recently said I was a TERF which I’m not but…” you are. Get comfortable with it. Nothing you say will make you anything other than a transphobic bigot from here on out. But that’s ok. Your assertions are factual. Better to tell the truth and all that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2022 22:01

I will thanks

You already have, as they've moved your thread here! Welcome

SignOnTheWindow · 04/02/2022 22:01

@RVN123

As long as MNHQ keep moving threads it gives the impression that this is something that should be swept under the carpet, or that doesn't concern average women "on the street". MNHQ this DOES CONCERN women everywhere, even ones who are not traditionally interested in women's rights or feminism. I think you are doing women a disservice by continually sweeping such threads into the naughty corner. Who are you to decide what should and should not interest women? Disappointing.

Absolutely. Need to keep contributing to these threads in the 'naughty corner' so they make it onto the active threads board for more to see.

Giraffesandbottoms · 04/02/2022 22:04

This thread has made me feel so much better

Helleofabore · 04/02/2022 22:05

@Scraggythang

“A friend recently said I was a TERF which I’m not but…” you are. Get comfortable with it. Nothing you say will make you anything other than a transphobic bigot from here on out. But that’s ok. Your assertions are factual. Better to tell the truth and all that.

“I’d rather be rude than a fucking liar.” Magdalen Berns

If posters have not yet discovered Magdalen’s videos, search Magdalen Berns on YouTube. Even now she is still spot on!!

FlasherMcGruff · 04/02/2022 22:45

No, you are right. Trans women are not women. Otherwise, why are trans? What would be the ‘transition’? They are men, with biologically male bodies, whose brains tell them that they’d like to be the female which they simply cannot, so they do things which feminise their gender to appear female. Female pronouns, female names, female clothes, female hair etc etc.

CityMumma78 · 04/02/2022 22:57

FAO: MNHQ - constantly moving (hiding) these threads is showing bias as well as sweeping a hugely important topic under the carpet and MN members have a right to discuss.
READ THE ROOM!!!

FlasherMcGruff · 04/02/2022 23:15

@twomumsonebump

Transphobic adjective Having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Y'all are just transphobic but won't admit to it.

Absolute rubbish. Plenty of trans people accept that they are NOT biologically the sex they transitioned to be! That’s why they transitioned. That’s why they often say they were born in a wrong-sex body. The name ‘trans’ literally states that there’s a process of changing. Are they transphobic too?

What you are doing when you shout TRANSPHOBIC is making it more difficult for trans people to be accepted because you are saying that for someone to do so - to want trans people to live happy lives as the gender they want - we must also accept that their male body with male dna is actually a female one, always has been, and that we would be wildly grossly offensive to say, ‘well, hang on. They aren’t a biological woman inside every bit of their DNA are they? They want to live as one. That’s not the exact same thing.’

These terms TRANSPHOBE! and TERF! are being bandied about constantly as a way to try to shut down discussion and I’m sick of it, quite frankly.

Here is a really excellent article using facts, rather than emotions, written by a evolutionary biologist with credit to all sources of information, explaining what biological sex is, why there are only two sexes, why intersex is not one of the two and why you can’t change sex, only gender:

www.realityslaststand.com/p/sex-is-not-a-spectrum

And here’s another on why people who are truly, biologically intersex number 0.018% of the population.
www.realityslaststand.com/p/intersex-is-not-as-common-as-red

Screaming TRANSPHOBIC is the same as shoving your fingers in your ears and shouting ‘I can’t hear you!’ It’s not an adult way to discuss biological science and I’m really tired of it.

I don’t dislike trans people. I dated a trans man. He was not born a man. He knew this. I’m not quite sure what the point is of pretending that he never had the difficulty of transitioning because he was supposedly always 100% a biological man. He was NOT! The horror of chest binding rammed this home enough.

NotTerfNorCis · 04/02/2022 23:20

Women are female. That means transwomen can't be women.

TRAs can never answer the question 'what is a woman'. If you push, they get all mystical on you: 'no one really knows what a woman is'. 'A woman is anyone who identifies as a woman.' 'Gender is more complex than quantum physics.'

But the obvious answer is: women are adult human females.

VelvetChairGirl · 04/02/2022 23:22

If I say what I think it will be deleted.