Dare I ask - the trans issue?

[shoplifteroftheworld]

How do people feel about the 'trans women are women' idea?

A friend recently said I was a TERF which I'm not but I don't agree that a man in his 50's who suddenly identifies as female and wears a dress has any idea of what it is to be truly female.

Feeling that you are trapped in the wrong body must be hell and the surgery one goes through is extreme to say the least. But it doesn't make you the opposite sex to the one you were born as.

Am I getting this wrong?

The great and the good made sure there was an exemption in the GRA so that males weren't disadvantaged. Think on that

That is very interesting indeed

[quote DontLikeCrumpets]@slashlover "OP, you've been here for several years, how can you NOT know how MN feels about it?" I was wondering the same thing[/quote]
Because threads about this issue keep getting taken from other sections and put in feminism? I spent over a year lurking on MN before I discovered the feminism section and realised I needed to sign up for an account.

I wonder if the original poster has their answer yet? I think the results are pretty clear cut (y'all)..... :)

Was there a poll attached to the thread in AIBU?

Those things get bloody inconvenient if you're trying to push a narrative that its only 6 women on the feminist board who are concerned about the impact of self ID on women's rights. The polls always seem to show its the majority of posters on the thread, it's awkward so the treads are moved. Our external moderators are very report happy but they're not silencing women at all!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The great and the good made sure there was an exemption in the GRA so that males weren't disadvantaged. Think on that.

What was that?

And the threads been move to the naughty corner

My friend of many years who is a trans woman and I are sharing a Friday night G&T. I was reading this thread when she arrived at my place and we've been reading some of the comments.

My friend and others label the trans activists who want access to women's spaces and sports as a men's rights movement who are encouraging more hostility towards trans people. My friend says that because she grew up and was socialised as a man, she can spot male entitlement at one hundred paces. And it is making the wider public more hostile to the trans community, who are mostly not activists and just want to live their lives in peace.

Oh fuck, just noticed that the thread has been shifted to a quiet corner of the discussion board. Can't we get it reinstated back to AIBU? This needs to be a mainstream conversation because there are wider implications that impact everyone.

@PenStation

My friend of many years who is a trans woman and I are sharing a Friday night G&T. I was reading this thread when she arrived at my place and we've been reading some of the comments.

My friend and others label the trans activists who want access to women's spaces and sports as a men's rights movement who are encouraging more hostility towards trans people. My friend says that because she grew up and was socialised as a man, she can spot male entitlement at one hundred paces. And it is making the wider public more hostile to the trans community, who are mostly not activists and just want to live their lives in peace.

Your friend is brave and I'm sure the majority of us want her to live as her authentic self in peace and safety. We just can't validate a feminine identity as entirely the same as a female body in all spaces such as changing rooms and weightlifting competitions, and grant such spaces to any old intact male person who claims to identify as a woman. But she knows that.

@SlipperyLizard " it is to appease transwomen, who want “woman” to be divorced from biological reality - as otherwise there’d be a similar clamour for men to be called “people with penises” (because apparently women can have penises too) and strangely nobody ever seems to argue for that!

It never occurred to me why we don't hear men called "people with penis" but you are spot on.

@TheKeatingFive

I do believe that there is a difference between sex and gender

I've never come across a definition of gender that didn't ultimately rely on social stereotypes. With this in mind, why not tackle the stereotypes rather than those feeling they don't conform to them? If you have an alternative definition that doesn't rely on this, I'd be interested to hear it.

I actually agree (I think?) and personally I don't think my gender is defined by anything other than my physical sex. I have worked and studied in a male dominated area and had many male dominated hobbies, for example. I don't think that makes me any "less female". I can't conceive for a second how a person can "feel" a particular gender.

But some people say that they do, and who am I to tell them how they feel?

@PenStation the trans community need to solve that problem then. I don't see anyone being vocal about it on social media. All I see is women being called terfs and threatened with rape.

@PenStation

Oh fuck, just noticed that the thread has been shifted to a quiet corner of the discussion board. Can't we get it reinstated back to AIBU? This needs to be a mainstream conversation because there are wider implications that impact everyone.

Maybe a thread on Site Stuff? Asking why it's been moved. I agree has now become a mainstream convo. MN need to stop controlling it.

But some people say that they do, and who am I to tell them how they feel?

Woman is not a feeling. The state of being female cannot be identified in or out of.

If it could, I'm sure all female rape victims would identify out of it to prevent the attack. I'd identify out of my birth injuries.

But some people say that they do, and who am I to tell them how they feel?

What if they told you they feel like an African American or a Japanese person? Would you take a similar view?

But some people say that they do, and who am I to tell them how they feel?

Except, if they say they feel like you do, a woman, they are actually defining how ‘you’ feel and what ‘you’ need.

I was reading this thread earlier and I immediately wondered how quickly it would get moved to the naughty corner.

@Helleofabore

But some people say that they do, and who am I to tell them how they feel?

Except, if they say they feel like you do, a woman, they are actually defining how ‘you’ feel and what ‘you’ need.

No one can define how feel, and I am sure you will agree there is no single state of feeling like a woman. So I think what they are actually saying is that they feel like they would rather be a woman, than a man. I don't think i can argue with that.

Now, there are areas where I would probably agree with the majority here:

• sport should generally be segregated by sex, not gender, otherwise there is just not point in segregating them at all
• male born sex offenders should not be allowed in women's prisons. (Saying that, there should be zero tolerance any rape in prisons, including male on male)
• when collecting data, for example, in census or for health and crime statistics, then both birth sex and gender are important.
• young people should not take hormones that might negatively affect them in later life until they are adults.

But I don't think that should stop someone born a man from living as a woman, if that would make them happier, and I'm happy to call them what they like. I don't think that is controversial.

Ooh, I stepped away for a while and this thread has, of course, been moved to the naughty corner. Clearly it has displeased the misogynistic monitors!

There's been some brilliant questions and discussion from posters whose names I don't recognise as normally being on this board. Please do stay and join in the conversations - it's great to see so many more people thinking 'hang on, what is going on?'

If someone were taking hormones/hormone suppressants in early puberty or just after, wouldn't that affect the bones forming in a way that help us identify sex?

But every cell in the human body is identifiable as either male or female, isn't it? Identifying whether those bones were male or female wouldn't need to look at their formation - the DNA would make it perfectly clear. Taking hormones does not make you change sex.

What is considered controversial about your very reasonable statement is the bit about prisons and sport. Sorry to inform you that you too are a raging transphobe.

We probably agree on more than we disagree, but I would like to ask what "live as a woman" actually means, without resorting to stereotypes?

But I don't think that should stop someone born a man from living as a woman, if that would make them happier, and I'm happy to call them what they like. I don't think that is controversial.

As you say, it becomes controversial when sex matters. When safeguarding protocols are softened, when women and children’s boundaries are lowered to accommodate a male’s needs.

But I disagree also. I don’t believe that a male really can understand the world as it is navigated as a women. They understand it as a transitioned male. They have their own perceptions. As I said. I believe that most females would have many more shared experiences than a transitioned male and a female would. Simple bodily functions would encompass a good few to start.

And sorry, a transitioned male lives their life how they perceive a female lives theirs or they forge their own experiences (which I really hope they do and accept). I don’t agree that they ‘live their life as a woman’, it can only be that they live as a transitioned male.

Even if we made a mistake sexing ancient bones, they'd still be male or female bones. I've sometimes mistaken a man for a woman and vice versa, but they've still been a man or a woman. I've just been mistaken.

@crazyjinglist

If someone were taking hormones/hormone suppressants in early puberty or just after, wouldn't that affect the bones forming in a way that help us identify sex?

But every cell in the human body is identifiable as either male or female, isn't it? Identifying whether those bones were male or female wouldn't need to look at their formation - the DNA would make it perfectly clear. Taking hormones does not make you change sex.

I'm not sure that that is correct based on what I've read today? Obviously happy to learn more about it but I've read that identifying sex from bone isn't 100% accurate (though it is very very high)

@Waitwhat23

Ooh, I stepped away for a while and this thread has, of course, been moved to the naughty corner. Clearly it has displeased the misogynistic monitors!

There's been some brilliant questions and discussion from posters whose names I don't recognise as normally being on this board. Please do stay and join in the conversations - it's great to see so many more people thinking 'hang on, what is going on?'

I'm another who welcome newbies to the naughty corner - fetch a drink from the bar and grab a seat.

Rules still apply, more here then elsewhere you'll find (it's the naught corner for a reason) but at least you know you're not alone (and not mad...and not wrong.)

Welcome