Dare I ask - the trans issue?

[shoplifteroftheworld]

How do people feel about the 'trans women are women' idea?

A friend recently said I was a TERF which I'm not but I don't agree that a man in his 50's who suddenly identifies as female and wears a dress has any idea of what it is to be truly female.

Feeling that you are trapped in the wrong body must be hell and the surgery one goes through is extreme to say the least. But it doesn't make you the opposite sex to the one you were born as.

Am I getting this wrong?

I’m not going to give you an essay on basic human decency,
But I’ll give you this.

dsm.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425596.dsm14

This is used to diagnose mental disorders, while I disagree that gender dysphoria is a “disorder” it does exist, natal men do want to be woman.

I’m not saying be a therapist to trans woman, I’m saying don’t cast them aside.
Why is that so hard ?

I feel like you don’t want to accept trans people, so I don’t care anymore.
Your trying to find fault and only arguing.
Live your sad existence.
@No1mummyjacky is right.
You guys are just trolls

[quote Mumisntmyrealname]There are minimal risk in letting your child wear a dress, when people believe they should wear trousers.
Thigh highs aren’t drugs. Binders aren’t self harming. NOT letting trans children be themselves leads to more suicides, self harm and abuse.
You thinking like this makes it worst for them, this thinking leads to bullying.
Please rethink what is dangerous to your child. These are uk trans suicide statistics, these are comparable to most places in the states as well if that is applicable

www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/trans_stats.pdf[/quote]
You really shouldn't be throwing about suicide statistics which have throughly been debunked. It's incredibly irresponsible.

The Scottish Government tried it in an official document and had to back down, saying that they were 'using those figures for illustrative purposes'.

Stonewall as an organisation have been shown to 'present the law as they wish it to be, not as it is' (University of Essex report) so I don't think they're a particularly reliable source.

If a natal man genuinely wants to be a woman, it’s our duty to accept her and help her and love her.

No, it isn't my duty to do any of that.

Who are you to be assigning duties anyway?

To comment on a couple of other pieces of your post:

I find the requirement to 'love' and feel a duty to help a bit odd and inappropriate. We're talking about humans, not pet kittens, there's a patronising assumption there that makes me uncomfortable.

There is also a quasi religious quality and rather a heavy lump of sexism - it is not the birth right of biological women to selflessly nurture male people in need. Having a vagina does not equate with being Florence Nightingale.

Love is also in healthy terms - which professionally of course you will know - a thing that is reciprocal, with good boundaries and equality. Are you requiring TW to 'love' female people? What requirements of acceptance, tolerance, diversity and inclusion will you exclude there, because permitting some female only refuges and rape crisis centres would probably save the lives of the females currently unable to access them due to the prioritisation of TW. And in some cases the refusal to permit the existence of a female only one even after the TW service users have three different ones on site to choose from. Nothing much 'loving' here really.

I'm not sure 'show a TW you love them! Subordinate and exclude a female today!' really achieves much.

@VestofAbsurdity

If a natal man genuinely wants to be a woman, it’s our duty to accept her and help her and love her.

No, it isn't my duty to do any of that.

Who are you to be assigning duties anyway?

They're a psychologist. Apparently.

@DialSquare one with delusions of grandeur it would seem and how quickly they all resort to insults proves conclusively that they have no argument and zero evidence.

I feel like you don’t want to accept trans people, so I don’t care anymore

Your first post was 19.07 ……thats a massive change in less than 30 minutes

No stamina

I’m not going to give you an essay on basic human decency,
Good, your time would be better spent sending an essay on basic human decency to the managers of the rape crisis centre in Brighton.

This is used to diagnose mental disorders, while I disagree that gender dysphoria is a “disorder” it does exist, natal men do want to be woman.
No one on here denies that gender dysphoria exists (see, you really need to educate yourself about your audience before coming to tell us what we think). But there is no requirement for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in order to access spaces otherwise denied. Self-ID (by the back door) has resulted in males being able to use the magic words "I am a woman" in order to waltz into spaces where traumatized victims of male violence are trying to recover.

I’m saying don’t cast them aside.
I have never treated a transwoman any different to any other acquaintance. "Good morning, how was your trip into town? Lovely weather..." That doesn't mean that there aren't places where sex matters. There are many transwomen who respect that sex matters, and wouldn't dream of trying to invade a space where males are not wanted. Sadly they get shouted down by the intolerant minority and the large army of hangers-on.

I’m saying don’t cast them aside.

Again with the religious overtones, and that's a bit over the top drama wise isn't it?

This is a women's rights forum. Women have needs and rights too. There is a conflict, and currently it is female people who are the ones excluded, arrested, bullied out of jobs and threatened with rape and death threats.

Try a bit of turn the other cheek and love thy neighbour on Stonewall perhaps? There are ways to achieve this perfectly happily. It involves the TQ+ political lobby developing some respect for females and tolerance that female need cannot be sacrificed to their greater importance. Or that it doesn't matter if some females get raped or harmed or excluded.

[quote VestofAbsurdity]@DialSquare one with delusions of grandeur it would seem and how quickly they all resort to insults proves conclusively that they have no argument and zero evidence.[/quote]
Yep. The calibre of the opposition is pretty shit if you ask me.

I feel like you don’t want to accept trans people, so I don’t care anymore

Ah.

So 'accept' does mean 'unconditionally subordinate yourselves to TQ+ needs and shut up'.

You seem remarkably close minded and unable to understand what is being said here for a professional with expertise in human social behaviour and presumably some understanding of the specific sex based vulnerabilities of females.

I feel like you don’t want to accept trans people,
Not into single-sex spaces intended for the opposite sex, no. Anywhere else is fine.

so I don’t care anymore.
Are you flouncing off with your screenshots now.

Your trying to find fault and only arguing.
If no one ever found fault in anything, Galileo would never have invented modern science.

Live your sad existence.

@No1mummyjacky is right.
No, toddlers rarely are right when they disagree with adults.

You guys are just trolls
DARVO

I’m saying don’t cast them aside.

Your intellectual dishonesty won't fly here. Not even when it's in the shape of emotionally manipulative and entirely false implication. You don't fool us and we are not cowing to your dishonest emotional blackmail.

Nobody here has said anything about "casting TW aside", whatever that means. You can attempt to imply it, though overly emotive language, but it's no better than than a lie.

What you actually want is to cast women aside, out of their sports, out of their protected spaces, out of their rape crisis centres, and mawkishly suggest that they are the villains if they don't comply. It won't fly. We see you.

Not one of you can point to anything JKR has said that is anti-trans. Not one of you can explain how allowing intact male people into women's sports, prisons, changing rooms and protected spaces on nothing more than their word, no legal process whatsoever, wouldn't be wide open to terrible abuse that has already happened and deny women their own chances. Not one of you sees anything wrong with excluding women when limited spaces on, say, a sports team go to natal males with an overwhelming physical advantage.

And you have the utter fucking chutzpah to come on here, wide-eyed and sanctimonious, and pretend that you're just casting your pearls among us to plead with us to be better people.

It won't fly here. We see you.

Bleeding Nora what a dramatic intervention I shall bring out the fainting couch

Meanwhile back in reality as a wise person said (I paraphrase) ‘dress as you want, love who you want, but you can’t change sex’

Mumisntmyrealname - you're really not that well read on this issue, are you?

Terrific bit of mansplaining, by the way.

@DrSbaitso

I’m saying don’t cast them aside.

Your intellectual dishonesty won't fly here. Not even when it's in the shape of emotionally manipulative and entirely false implication. You don't fool us and we are not cowing to your dishonest emotional blackmail.

Nobody here has said anything about "casting TW aside", whatever that means. You can attempt to imply it, though overly emotive language, but it's no better than than a lie.

What you actually want is to cast women aside, out of their sports, out of their protected spaces, out of their rape crisis centres, and mawkishly suggest that they are the villains if they don't comply. It won't fly. We see you.

Not one of you can point to anything JKR has said that is anti-trans. Not one of you can explain how allowing intact male people into women's sports, prisons, changing rooms and protected spaces on nothing more than their word, no legal process whatsoever, wouldn't be wide open to terrible abuse that has already happened and deny women their own chances. Not one of you sees anything wrong with excluding women when limited spaces on, say, a sports team go to natal males with an overwhelming physical advantage.

And you have the utter fucking chutzpah to come on here, wide-eyed and sanctimonious, and pretend that you're just casting your pearls among us to plead with us to be better people.

It won't fly here. We see you.

I think TRAs didn’t like the fact that JKR questioned the mainstream narrative about removing the word “women” from the public sphere. This is her essay. I believe more discussion has to be done about women and girls being placed in vulnerable situations, sports, how language is being shaped through usage etc.

[quote Gosports]@No1MummyJacky you’re taking the mickey, right? Please say you are, no one could say that with a straight face.[/quote]
Posters will note that No1MummyJacky's posts have now been deleted. The account has been banned after being reported as a troll.

Don't worry though, for the benefit of the lurkers the text lives on in the quotes.