Dare I ask - the trans issue?

[shoplifteroftheworld]

How do people feel about the 'trans women are women' idea?

A friend recently said I was a TERF which I'm not but I don't agree that a man in his 50's who suddenly identifies as female and wears a dress has any idea of what it is to be truly female.

Feeling that you are trapped in the wrong body must be hell and the surgery one goes through is extreme to say the least. But it doesn't make you the opposite sex to the one you were born as.

Am I getting this wrong?

@theqentity nobody has a problem with transwomen who just want to live their lives showing respect to women. But however much we may respect them they aren't women, they cant be its a biological fact you cant change your sex. And by insisting they are women, it allows less decent folk to take advantage, and use it to abuse women.

@theqentity

I have friends who are trans women. They are women. None of them want to beat your daughters at tennis or taunt you in the bogs. They just want to live in a way that feels most authentic to them.

I'm sure they're lovely. But they are not biologically women. I have a trans friend too. She is a trans woman and she is happy to be accepted as such.

@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea

It’s not my area of expertise but I would be extremely surprised if taking hormones would change bone composition. Not to mention the huge morally dubious practice of giving someone pre pubescent hormone altering drugs.

But yes, even without the DNA being examined, plenty of factors will show that a body was female - the pelvis, the skull, bone size/density etc.

No-one seems to get worked up about trans men.

the surgery one goes through is extreme
Only a tiny minority do go through it.

What's the main stream scientific perspectives and research and evidence on this matter ?

@theqentity

I have friends who are trans women. They are women. None of them want to beat your daughters at tennis or taunt you in the bogs. They just want to live in a way that feels most authentic to them.

I'm glad you have lovely friends. They are trans women. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a trans woman. I also know a trans woman who is lovely. As are my husband and my brothers. Just because I'm fond of these people I'd never presume to suggest that they should override women's boundaries by entering single sex spaces. And I'd never be personally offended if my friends didn't want to share single sex spaces with them even after I'd vouched for them.

Humans can't change sex. We're not clownfish.

Abusive males don't wear a badge warning us.

Even if they did, many women don't wish to be in vulnerable states around non abusive males due to reasons such as trauma or religion or dignity.

Safeguarding and fair competition isn't personal. Any male of any gender ID who takes offence at safeguarding measures is waving a red flag.

If someone were taking hormones/hormone suppressants in early puberty or just after, wouldn't that affect the bones forming in a way that help us identify sex?

The individual would have to have started taking such drugs pre-puberty, quite a while pre-puberty, to have any affect on overall bone density. A pre-teen child.

And the concommitant health issues would be life changing - as some recent de transitioners have pointed out.

No, you are not getting it wrong. Trans women are trans women not women.

No doubt though many trans women are just trying to get on with their lives without wanting to push this ideology on everyone else, or on women.

There is a trans woman on the Feminism sex and gender board today, for example, saying he knows he is not actually a woman.

It is probably a
minority, including women allies, who are promoting the idea that trans women are women and that they have a right to all women’s sex based spaces.

I went to the v&a museum this weekend and all the loos were unisex and I had to go in there with men and it was honestly awful and this is just the beginning.

You're right. Humans can't change sex. Most trans women haven't had surgery and keep their penis anyway.
Gender dysmorphia must be a horrible mental illness to suffer from but it doesn't make you the opposite sex.

@theqentity

I have friends who are trans women. They are women. None of them want to beat your daughters at tennis or taunt you in the bogs. They just want to live in a way that feels most authentic to them.

I have lots of male friends, none want to harm women. And? You are completely missing the point.

@Grantanow

No-one seems to get worked up about trans men.

Well obviously not. Transmen have no negative impact on mens life, some trans women have huge negative impact on womens lives.

My apologies, I meant no disrespect and used the wrong pronouns accidentally: there is a trans woman on the other board saying she knows she is not a woman.

There is a trans woman on the Feminism sex and gender board today, for example, saying he knows he is not actually a woman

Yes - but he’s also saying that it’s ok transwomen who are sufficiently confident that they pass to use women’s spaces. It’s not.

@arethereanyleftatall

They're not women, they're trans women.

This.

This distinction, women and transwomen, in no way means I endorse any discrimination against or intolerance towards any transpeople. But transwomen are transwomen. That's simply accurate.

@theqentity

I have friends who are trans women. They are women. None of them want to beat your daughters at tennis or taunt you in the bogs. They just want to live in a way that feels most authentic to them.

If you think the issues around blindly accepting trans women as women is being 'taunted in the bog' then you really have no clue. What an insult to the women assaulted, raped and murdered by men pretending to be trans women.

@theqentity

I have friends who are trans women. They are women. None of them want to beat your daughters at tennis or taunt you in the bogs. They just want to live in a way that feels most authentic to them.

As do I. And, having spoken to them rather than simply assuming ally status, I found that they are as angry with all of this as I am.

They are male bodied, have not changed sex and, as of at least 6 years ago, stopped using any female facility for all of the reasons many women, here and in real life, are now using to say no!

My friends are angry because the current insistance on TWAW has changed their lives, their perceptions of themselves, other peoples perceptions of them - all for the negative. They feel less 'authentic' (not a word I have heard them ever use), less comfortable in their own skin now, in some social situations, than they did in the early stages of transition.

And that is why they are not part of the problem. But have become caught up in it.

The problem is all of the TWAW shouters; those TW who DO perform in women's sports; who DO take awards for women; who do set out to make women feel uncomfortable, etc etc etc.

And of course, those women who say "Ah, don't be mean, they just want to live their authentic lives". They too are part of the problem - because they cannot, or will not, see beyond the end of their noses to the wider issues TWAW brings to us all!

[quote Giraffesandbottoms]@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea

It’s not my area of expertise but I would be extremely surprised if taking hormones would change bone composition. Not to mention the huge morally dubious practice of giving someone pre pubescent hormone altering drugs.

But yes, even without the DNA being examined, plenty of factors will show that a body was female - the pelvis, the skull, bone size/density etc.[/quote]
I might see if there is anything published on this that I can find (and understand). Not to make a point or anything but it's really interesting!

I would have thought that before bones had finished growing, the sizes and shapes could be altered through hormones.

off to google

@theqentity nobody has a problem with transwomen who just want to live their lives showing respect to women. But however much we may respect them they aren't women, they cant be its a biological fact you cant change your sex. And by insisting they are women, it allows less decent folk to take advantage, and use it to abuse women.

Exactly!

You’re right OP. They are men. And need to stay out of female only space and woman's sports.
Check out standing for women . com and Kelly-Jay Keen on YouTube.

@Carriemac

Trans women are men who dress as and /or feeli like women . No one can change sex.

‘Feel like women’

@SamphiretheStickerist

If someone were taking hormones/hormone suppressants in early puberty or just after, wouldn't that affect the bones forming in a way that help us identify sex?

The individual would have to have started taking such drugs pre-puberty, quite a while pre-puberty, to have any affect on overall bone density. A pre-teen child.

And the concommitant health issues would be life changing - as some recent de transitioners have pointed out.

Do they do hormone treatments on pre-teens? I thought they had to be so far through puberty to even be considered (which I strongly disagree with FYI). I don't agree that life altering treatments like this should ever be considered for minors, especially, like you say, the issues de-transitioners have experienced.

You're not wrong and FYI, the vast majority of trans women have no bottom surgery and so retain their penis and testicles.

Transmen have no negative impact on mens life, some trans women have huge negative impact on womens lives.

Isn’t it for transmen that the phrases pregnant people and chest feeding were brought in? Or have I got that wrong?