Dare I ask - the trans issue?

[shoplifteroftheworld]

How do people feel about the 'trans women are women' idea?

A friend recently said I was a TERF which I'm not but I don't agree that a man in his 50's who suddenly identifies as female and wears a dress has any idea of what it is to be truly female.

Feeling that you are trapped in the wrong body must be hell and the surgery one goes through is extreme to say the least. But it doesn't make you the opposite sex to the one you were born as.

Am I getting this wrong?

Duke of ....... has two children, the elder is a transman John ( born female but legally male after transition and has Gender Recognition certificate) and the other a transwoman Jemima, also with a GRC, so legally female although born male. Duke dies and new Duke is Duke Jemima because only people born male can take the title.

[quote oviraptor21]@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea
Like rye 5th Duke of Timbuctoo. When he dies his title will only ever pass to a male heir. The 6th Duke of Timbuctoo will be a male ....never a transman.
I'm assuming if a male has a GRC (making them a transwoman) they wouldn't be allowed to inherit the title either?[/quote]
Ooo now that is interesting!

If transwomen were actual women they would have an inkling of how frightening it can be for women and girls when a man is in protected, segregated women's spaces, but they have no idea, because they are men.

@Giraffesandbottoms

They are not women. As I told the Lib Dem man who came to my door today.

That is awesome! They need to hear this as they are always saying that no one raises this on the door step!

[quote oviraptor21]@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea
Like rye 5th Duke of Timbuctoo. When he dies his title will only ever pass to a male heir. The 6th Duke of Timbuctoo will be a male ....never a transman.
I'm assuming if a male has a GRC (making them a transwoman) they wouldn't be allowed to inherit the title either?[/quote]
You are incorrect in your last statement, a male who has transitioned to a transwoman with or without a GRC and the GRC lists their legal sex as female will still inherit the title because, surprise, surprise, in terms of inheriting aristocratic titles, a place in the HoL, vast estates, etc., the TW is still considered male.

Patriarchy, eh.

Well, it all comes back to the question......WHAT is a woman?

If you define woman as ADULT HUMAN FEMALE, then how can a biological man ever be an adult human female? The answer obviously is, he can't.

If you define woman as some sort of ethereal, cloudy, non distinct feeling, then a man can be a woman, but he can also be a dog, a cat, or a hippo if he 'feels' like one, and if his 'feelings' are to be believed and indulged. Why is that any more silly than feeling like a woman?

HOW can a man feel like a woman if he has never been one and has no point of reference? Just because he may not feel like a traditional man or fit into masculine stereotypes, does not therefore mean that by default he is a woman.

Woman means female at a biological level.
We know it's impossible to ever change biological sex (and we've heard all the arguments - hormones can change, genitals can 'change' to an approximation of the chosen sex etc). It does not result in anything other than a natal man on synthetic cross sex hormones who may or may not have had body modification surgery to resemble a woman. If the hormones are stopped, his own natural body would reassert itself as fully male again.
Sex is binary.
Sex is determined genetically at CONCEPTION. We are not all "female" in utero (at about 6 weeks the SRY part of the Y Chromosome (if present) expresses itself and results in a male foetus all going well, if not, it may result in a DSD.
Sex is immutable.
Unchangeable.

And none of this is "transphobic" - facts cannot be transphobic. Facts are just facts. Facts don't care about 'feelings' or beliefs, or an internal ideology in some man's head.

The facts will still be the same in 100'000 years. That's how we know they are facts. Science books will not be re-written.

Yes you entitled to your own opinions.
But your are NOT entitled to your own facts.

@Helleofabore

Thank you. Poor man was terrified of my ranting but there you go!

@RVN123

Exceptional post.

Your sex isn't a feeling.
Or an item of clothing.
Or a way of walking or acting.

It is nothing to do with your soul or your inner essence.

It's just what you were born as and what you'll die as and no woman does the washing up or climbs a mountain or paints a picture or picks their nose while simultaneously thinking 'I'm a WOMAN, look at me being a WOMAN'. We just are them, without thinking about it or trying.

Whether or not trans women are women, I am in the camp that believes they should be treated as women in society. Their experiences will be different, but my experiences will be very different to yours.

This is a very confused take. On the one hand it seems very individualistic to try and deny that different women have in common the experience of being female under a patriarchy.

I'm willing to bet that my experience of, for example, puberty had more in common with a girl from a completely different cultural background than it did with my brothers' experiences of puberty.

Individualism is problematic because those with structural and physical advantages tend to come out on top.

But if you're individualist in nature what does "treated as a woman" in society even mean to you? You are acknowledging the class of woman here. But a moment ago you asserted different women couldn't possibly have anything in common, negating them as a coherent class.

They just want to live in a way that feels most authentic to them

Fine, up to the point when doing so impinges on my rights and my life. I do not have to and will not validate their view of themselves or be used as a prop in their authentic living.

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/16319/pdf/

Giraffesandbottoms

I raised it a couple of years ago on my doorstep to a conservative candidate (who was very well read up on it and agreed that sex matters sometimes) and a LD councillor campaigning for the LD candidate. They also agreed but told me that the LD executive had specific goals around this. And the LD MP who won the seat has continued to walk the LD line about it.

BUT neither parties can say it was never raised in their region. I imagine the next elections will see many women raising this.

So, well done. And who ever wins, please keep emailing them with any latest issue. I assume they are local council, but there is so much to to be done even at that level.

Transphobic
adjective
Having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

Transphobia, the actual kind, isn't tolerated on MN.

Please explain how disagreeing with gender ideology equals a prejudice against or dislike of trans people?

I don't agree that God exists. I don't agree that puffa jackets look cool (hello 1990s drug dealer in the jungle club?) I don't agree that trickle down economics works. I don't agree that cats are better than dogs. I could go on. All those opinions put me at odds with a huge number of people with whom I happily interact every day. What is so different about trans people that I am not allowed to disagree with them?

Whether or not trans women are women, I am in the camp that believes they should be treated as women in society. Their experiences will be different, but my experiences will be very different to yours.

In what degree would their experiences differ to mine or yours as biological females?

I suspect you understand the magnitude of the 'differences' here but like to play it down.

When did this thread move here?

The great and the good made sure there was an exemption in the GRA so that males weren't disadvantaged. Think on that.

Yes, it was in AIBU, wasn't it?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes, it was in AIBU, wasn't it?

Yes was definitely in AIBU. MNHQ trying to put this in the naughty corner again. 🙄

@slashlover "OP, you've been here for several years, how can you NOT know how MN feels about it?" I was wondering the same thing

You are not allowed to talk about this in AIBU. Threads get shifted here, to the Naughty Corner.
You will be told it's to do with thread neatness - putting them where they belong. This is not the case with any other threads on AIBU, just this topic.
It used to, I think, be a way to contain the questioning of this topic to one easily contained area. Isn't working so well any more, as women are thinking about it all over the place.

As long as MNHQ keep moving threads it gives the impression that this is something that should be swept under the carpet, or that doesn't concern average women "on the street".
MNHQ this DOES CONCERN women everywhere, even ones who are not traditionally interested in women's rights or feminism.
I think you are doing women a disservice by continually sweeping such threads into the naughty corner.
Who are you to decide what should and should not interest women?
Disappointing.

Agree rvn123

[quote DontLikeCrumpets]@slashlover "OP, you've been here for several years, how can you NOT know how MN feels about it?" I was wondering the same thing[/quote]
Strangely enough, I have friends who have no idea this is all happening. I imagine if you scroll over threads that don’t interest you (although it seems some posters simply cannot do this and therefore complain to have threads moved that are not to their liking) you could exist without knowing anything about it.

Are you upset that OP raised the issue?