Dare I ask - the trans issue?

[shoplifteroftheworld]

How do people feel about the 'trans women are women' idea?

A friend recently said I was a TERF which I'm not but I don't agree that a man in his 50's who suddenly identifies as female and wears a dress has any idea of what it is to be truly female.

Feeling that you are trapped in the wrong body must be hell and the surgery one goes through is extreme to say the least. But it doesn't make you the opposite sex to the one you were born as.

Am I getting this wrong?

This graphic in particular. There are outliers of course but as a general rule, skeletons are very easy to determine as being male or female.

@CounsellorTroi

Transmen have no negative impact on mens life, some trans women have huge negative impact on womens lives.

Isn’t it for transmen that the phrases pregnant people and chest feeding were brought in? Or have I got that wrong?

@CounsellorTroi

That’s what they’d have you believe, but in my view it is to appease transwomen, who want “woman” to be divorced from biological reality - as otherwise there’d be a similar clamour for men to be called “people with penises” (because apparently women can have penises too) and strangely nobody ever seems to argue for that!

@borntobequiet

The idea that pre-pubescent children could be given medication that might alter their bodies in such a way that their sex would be indeterminate in future life is repugnant and indefensible.

In England that had to go to court to be settled, and still those who lost, those who do want pre-pubescent children to be given life altering meds are fighting the result, and winning in some areas. They don't want to see the damage, the danger, they don't want to acknowledge what little medical information we do have. They still peddle the lies about 'pausing puberty' etc. And I STILL don't know why? What is the end goal for this?

@twomumsonebump it isn't transphobic to point out that humans cannot change sex. They can dress however they please, change their names and even have bits cut off their body or added but their biological sex remains the same.

@twomumsonebump

Transphobic adjective Having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Y'all are just transphobic but won't admit to it.

If you want to persuade anyone that anything you say has logical merit you are going to have to try much harder than that!

[quote Waitwhat23]Found this interesting - fairplayforwomen.com/biological-sex-differences/[/quote]
That's brilliant! Really interesting

"WOMENS ELBOWS AND SHOULDERS are slightly different from men’s. Our arms bend a little further from our bodies and are more mobile at both joints." - did not know this!

Women in the west have had rights for a relatively short time - we've been allowed to vote for less than 6% of even the last two millennia and the equality act of 2010 has been around for less than 0.6% of that time. If you zoom out a little it appears that within a heartbeat of being given these rights men are simply undermining them - if any man can claim to be a women then sex-based rights become completely meaningless.

There are genuinely trans people, and then there is a whole separate group of misogynists who have seized upon trans-rights activism as a means to undermine the sex-based rights of women.

@Waitwhat23

This graphic in particular. There are outliers of course but as a general rule, skeletons are very easy to determine as being male or female.

So it's the tiny percentages where the skeleton cannot be easily determined that are stoking the TWAW argument?

Re make and female bones:
“Distinct features adapted for childbearing distinguish adult females from males. Other bones and the skull also have features that can indicate sex, though less reliably. In young children, these sex-related features are less obvious and more difficult to interpret. Subtle sex differences are detectable in younger skeletons, but they become more defined following puberty and sexual maturation“

From the pdf in this
naturalhistory.si.edu/sites/default/files/media/file/wibskeletonmaleorfemalefinal.pdf

@twomumsonebump

Transphobic adjective Having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Y'all are just transphobic but won't admit to it.

Erm, except they're not?

[quote Giraffesandbottoms]@TheAbbotOfUnreason

Is that the same for the skull shape?[/quote]
I think skulls go through different stages of development, both pre puberty and during puberty, and it’s complicated by ethnic differences.

There is barely a bone, let alone a joint, that doesn't differ between the sexes. And we all pick them out without giving it much thought.

Then ligaments and other soft body tissues also differ. We can't see that but we can see the result of that in everything from sport to health issues. And we recognise that too!

Because we are a dimorphic species. Reproduction, the survival of the species demands that we recognise it (and no, that's not a slur on same sex attraction etc etc, it's just evolution).

@theqentity

I have friends who are trans women. They are women. None of them want to beat your daughters at tennis or taunt you in the bogs. They just want to live in a way that feels most authentic to them.

Good for them. Genuinely. They're not women though

Whether or not trans women are women, I am in the camp that believes they should be treated as women in society. Their experiences will be different, but my experiences will be very different to yours.

How about a child who’s just started puberty?

I should have said pre-pubescent or pubescent.

@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea
“original body blueprint for all humans is female.“

This used to be taught but is no longer considered true.

This came up on another thread and someone explained.

This graphic in particular. There are outliers of course but as a general rule, skeletons are very easy to determine as being male or female.

I suspect that why it's sometime harder though on archeological digs as they don't always have the complete skeleton and it's not always in pristine condition.

@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea in much the same way that Disorders of Sexual Development (DSD's) are co-pted in order to 'prove' that sex is a spectrum, not binary. It's desperate grasping at straws with no scientific evidence to back it up.

A friend recently said I was a TERF

I don't think that person could recognise a radical feminist if they were slapped in the face by the trans inclusive Andrea Dworkin.

I'm so bored of woken being shut down by a crap insult that doesn't even make sense.

[quote ScrollingLeaves]@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea
“original body blueprint for all humans is female.“

This used to be taught but is no longer considered true.

This came up on another thread and someone explained.[/quote]
Could you link? Thank you.

[quote ScrollingLeaves]@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea
“original body blueprint for all humans is female.“

This used to be taught but is no longer considered true.

This came up on another thread and someone explained.[/quote]
Ah, I didn't know this either

off to google again

@borntobequiet

How about a child who’s just started puberty?

I should have said pre-pubescent or pubescent.

👍

it’s complicated by ethnic differences.

Yes. As I had to repeat almost every session on such things:

There are many, many more differences between any one individual and the individual standing next to them than than are between any other cohort, ethnicity, sex included.

But the broad brush strokes apply - e.g male and female chins. Just because a female swimmer, like Sharon Davis, will lay down more bone mass on her chin because of the training she does, we don't mistake her for a male (well, not unless we are desperately trying to make a daft point). And a male who competes at the same level, will also have bone adaptations that are equally measurable, but not necessarily the to the same etent, or to the same bones.

@Squidgames4U

Whether or not trans women are women, I am in the camp that believes they should be treated as women in society. Their experiences will be different, but my experiences will be very different to yours.

They should be treated with respect and kindness, like any other human being should.

They should also recognise that their dysphoria unfortunately comes with disadvantages, such as being unable to access certain sex based spaces and participate in women's sports.