Dare I ask - the trans issue?

[shoplifteroftheworld]

How do people feel about the 'trans women are women' idea?

A friend recently said I was a TERF which I'm not but I don't agree that a man in his 50's who suddenly identifies as female and wears a dress has any idea of what it is to be truly female.

Feeling that you are trapped in the wrong body must be hell and the surgery one goes through is extreme to say the least. But it doesn't make you the opposite sex to the one you were born as.

Am I getting this wrong?

[quote Ohmygodyesthatsit]@theqentity nobody has a problem with transwomen who just want to live their lives showing respect to women. But however much we may respect them they aren't women, they cant be its a biological fact you cant change your sex. And by insisting they are women, it allows less decent folk to take advantage, and use it to abuse women.[/quote]
You have a problem with transwomen, and don't for a second say you don't. You don't get to decide how they identify, thankfully and never will.

The idea that pre-pubescent children could be given medication that might alter their bodies in such a way that their sex would be indeterminate in future life is repugnant and indefensible.

@theqentity

I have friends who are trans women. They are women. None of them want to beat your daughters at tennis or taunt you in the bogs. They just want to live in a way that feels most authentic to them.

Good for you, I hope they also stay out of womens safe spaces as they are not entitled to be in there.

Sex matters. Trans women are men.

It’s not my area of expertise but I would be extremely surprised if taking hormones would change bone composition

I thought there were concerns about puberty blockers doing just this - Lupron which I understood was a similar type of drug used to delay early on set puberty there were concerns raised as bone density is mostly put down in teen years and it seems to have adverse effects.

khn.org/news/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems/

bmj :Close examination of existing studies indicates that use of puberty blockers in transgender young people commonly results in loss of bone mineral density

If someone were taking hormones/hormone suppressants in early puberty or just after, wouldn't that affect the bones forming in a way that help us identify sex?

I don't know the answer to the orginal question but it looks like bone may be affected by the suppressants or very least there are possible concerns.

[quote SisterJude]@theqentity you think women want a say in how men identify? Really? I don't give a fuck as I'm sure a lot of women (and men)don't. As long as they stay out of women's spaces I don't care what they do🤷‍♀️[/quote]
Yep. I'll still think they're men but it doesn't bother me how they identify, as long as they stay away from womens rights, sports, safe spaces etc. as they have absolutely no right to be there.

You don't get to decide how they identify, thankfully and never will

I don’t care how people identify! People can identify as cats for all I care - I just don’t expect their self ID to impact my life negatively and erode women’s rights in general. Calling mothers and women anything other (people who menstruated/chest feeders or whatever it is now) is batshit and offensive. What about what I identify as?!

Transwomen are men.
Transmen are women.
Non-binary is nonsense.
There's no such thing as a trans child.

COME FOR ME, STONEWALL STASI!

@theqentity

I have friends who are trans women. They are women. None of them want to beat your daughters at tennis or taunt you in the bogs. They just want to live in a way that feels most authentic to them.

But...if they are trans women like you say they are they aren't women. How can they be both?

Pelvic morphology differs markedly between the sexes, but only after puberty. It seems that with the onset of puberty, the female pelvis expands; with the onset of menopause, it contracts again. The male pelvis remains on the same developmental trajectory throughout a lifetime.

www.pnas.org/content/113/19/5227

@TheAbbotOfUnreason

Is that the same for the skull shape?

@Calennig

It’s not my area of expertise but I would be extremely surprised if taking hormones would change bone composition

I thought there were concerns about puberty blockers doing just this - Lupron which I understood was a similar type of drug used to delay early on set puberty there were concerns raised as bone density is mostly put down in teen years and it seems to have adverse effects.

khn.org/news/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems/

bmj :Close examination of existing studies indicates that use of puberty blockers in transgender young people commonly results in loss of bone mineral density

If someone were taking hormones/hormone suppressants in early puberty or just after, wouldn't that affect the bones forming in a way that help us identify sex?

I don't know the answer to the orginal question but it looks like bone may be affected by the suppressants or very least there are possible concerns.

I've just been (very briefly) reading about identifying the sex of skeletons and apparently it has never been black and white. There is apparently a scale from 1 (very female) to 5 (very male) based on characteristics of the pelvis with those in the middle being 'undermined'. Meaning there are those who don't have 'clear' make or female skeleton.

Also apparently it's very easy to mistake a narrow hipped, tall female skeleton as male and a shorter, more petite male as female.

So, at a glance, it seems that bones aren't as binary as I had thought and the exploration into forensic anthropology in trans people is not massively clear as it's a relatively new phenomenon.

Would be so interesting to leap 100 years in the future and see what they can tell about our society now from the bones.

This is not a rational line of thought.

I'm an atheist. Does this mean I have a problem with my Muslim neighbours or my Christian dad? Of course not! I get on with them all fantastically. Showing them respect does not equal believing or pretending to believe in their religion.

Where do people see this all going?

EVERYBODY I know, men and women, think it's absolutely bloody ridiculous that there are currently men/trans women competing in womens sport. Everybody.

Who is putting an end to it all?

Quote fail above! Was supposed to reply to PP who suggested not believing in gender ID is the same as "having a problem with" individual trans people.

[quote Giraffesandbottoms]@TheAbbotOfUnreason

Is that the same for the skull shape?[/quote]
Apparently in the skull, jaw shape can change with the loss of adult teeth.
So for example, a mans jaw which has lost several adult teeth can more resemble a females as the original body blueprint for all humans is female.

This is what I've just been reading about.

A man is a man and a woman is a woman! The best surgeons in the world cannot change biology and a person’s chromosomes. People can believe and identify as they see fit but you cannot argue with science. The derogatory term TERF is used because there really is no logical argument for a man thinking they are a woman especially when women are campaigning for women and their safety (toilets, changing rooms, hospitals, jails etc.) so it comes down to name calling!

'Trans women' are men who demand to be called women.

~Julia Long

@theqentity

I have friends who are trans women. They are women. None of them want to beat your daughters at tennis or taunt you in the bogs. They just want to live in a way that feels most authentic to them.

I have a friend who is a trans woman. She identifies 'with' women, not 'as' a woman and her fear of men and being vulnerable near them enables her to understand why she is not and will never be a woman.

Found this interesting - fairplayforwomen.com/biological-sex-differences/

@borntobequiet

The idea that pre-pubescent children could be given medication that might alter their bodies in such a way that their sex would be indeterminate in future life is repugnant and indefensible.

How about a child who’s just started puberty?

Blockers put both their body and brain development on hold.

I've just been (very briefly) reading about identifying the sex of skeletons and apparently it has never been black and white. There is apparently a scale from 1 (very female) to 5 (very male) based on characteristics of the pelvis with those in the middle being 'undermined'. Meaning there are those who don't have 'clear' make or female skeleton.

Makes sense - I thinK I've seen them talking about that on tv on archeological digs - sometimes very clear sometimes not.

“TheAbbotOfUnreason

Pelvic morphology differs markedly between the sexes, but only after puberty. It seems that with the onset of puberty, the female pelvis expands; with the onset of menopause, it contracts again. The male pelvis remains on the same developmental trajectory throughout a lifetime.

www.pnas.org/content/113/19/5227”

The differences exist before puberty but are more difficult to distinguish.

Transphobic
adjective
Having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Y'all are just transphobic but won't admit to it.