Dare I ask - the trans issue?

[shoplifteroftheworld]

How do people feel about the 'trans women are women' idea?

A friend recently said I was a TERF which I'm not but I don't agree that a man in his 50's who suddenly identifies as female and wears a dress has any idea of what it is to be truly female.

Feeling that you are trapped in the wrong body must be hell and the surgery one goes through is extreme to say the least. But it doesn't make you the opposite sex to the one you were born as.

Am I getting this wrong?

Not women. Trans ideology perpetuates harmful sex stereotypes and does catastrophic damage to vulnerable people.

@Lennon80

No you are right! It’s a mental illness - nobody can change sex. It’s no different to claiming to be black, disabled etc it’s an insult to women.

There is a condition where someone believes themself to be disabled and some go to extreme measures to 'live' their disability such as amputating their own limbs or blinding themselves with bleach.

It’s possible for men to become women the legal sense. I will of course treat anyone as they wish to be treated in a social setting and use the pronouns they prefer etc But no it’s not possible for a person to physically change sex. I’m not going to pretend things that are not true in order to ‘be kind’. I also think that means it has to be recognised that someone who has been through male puberty has an unfair advantage and should not be competing in women’s sport.

I think trans people should be treated with respect and kindness, and that people should be able to present how they like without being harrassed. I also have no problem using someone's preferred name and pronoun.

However I also think:

• Males should not be in women's sports or women's single-sex spaces (prisons, refuges, changing rooms)
• Children and teens should not be put on a path to medication and surgery
• We need to be allowed a word for biological females and a word for biological males

Some possible solutions:

• Third unisex spaces (good for trans people, gender non-conforming people, people with caring responsibilities for people of the opposite sex)
• Sports: could change the men's category to a "male and open" category and make it clear that trans women and non-binary males are very welcome and will not be harrassed for how they present; females who have taken testosterone could also play in this category
• Children and teens: encouragement to wear and play with what they like and encourage breaking down gender stereotypes without affirming that a child definitely is or isn't trans. More funding for MH support to cover gender issues together with other issues. Transition (social or medical) to be an adult decision
• Language: I would vote that in general terms woman means female and man means male, otherwise no-one knows what anyone else means. But we can change the language for individuals, e.g. if I was talking about an individual trans man I would say man (even if they are not literally a man). Ditto for other terms - keep pregnant women and breastfeeding etc but use alternative terms if an individual requests it.

Yes. I'd say having your cock or tits chopped off by the surgeon is extreme too.

Except inheriting titles of course. That's not open to transmen. Tells you so much about a country's priorities that that was the one place the government drew the line.

TWAW pisses me off. NO YOU AREN'T.
Just like I'm not a cat.

And they are welcome to live in a way that feels authentic to them. However their feeling does not negate the scientific fact that they are men.
They are not and never can be women because humans cannot change sex.
They are men who present themselves as women.

I believe everyone should be able to live in any way that they choose, and that should be 100% respected.

I do believe that there is a difference between sex and gender, and sometimes sex is the more relevant attribute (as regards health matters, for example). While that needs to be handled sensitively, it can't be ignored.

I think getting the terminology right is important. If we could conceded "woman" = female gendered and "female" = born female sex (or something along those lines), and then have a grown up discussion about where lines should be drawn by sex or by gender (for sport, prisons, etc), then I think that would solve a lot of problems.

Whether or not trans women are women, I am in the camp that believes they should be treated as women in society. Their experiences will be different, but my experiences will be very different to yours.

What do you mean by 'treated as women in society'? Do you mean doing most of the mundane caring roles such as changing shitty nappies? Do you mean being murdered at the rate of 3 a week? Do you mean being denied a promotion for being of child bearing age?

Can you be more specific?

@PaleGreenGhost

Except inheriting titles of course. That's not open to transmen. Tells you so much about a country's priorities that that was the one place the government drew the line.

What do you mean? Like princess/prince sort of thing?

I do believe that there is a difference between sex and gender

I've never come across a definition of gender that didn't ultimately rely on social stereotypes. With this in mind, why not tackle the stereotypes rather than those feeling they don't conform to them? If you have an alternative definition that doesn't rely on this, I'd be interested to hear it.

You are a 'terf' by their standards.

The trouble is their standards are a load of bollocks. Its trying to shame you into saying black is white. Its a type of mind control and gaslighting to coerce you into telling the lie.

Its abusive, its sexist and its homophobic.

If TWAW then how come Women can't be Transwomen?

Sexist stereotypes of what a women should be like and they live does not make someone a woman.

'Live life in an authetic way'? What the fuck does that actually mean? Please do explain in a way that isn't restrictive and detrimental to women.

@Carriemac

Trans women are men who dress as and /or feeli like women . No one can change sex.

This. There is no other way it can be looked at or argued. It is what it is.

@SliceOfCakeCupOfTea
Like rye 5th Duke of Timbuctoo. When he dies his title will only ever pass to a male heir. The 6th Duke of Timbuctoo will be a male ....never a transman.
I'm assuming if a male has a GRC (making them a transwoman) they wouldn't be allowed to inherit the title either?

*the (not rye) - pesky fat thumbs and when you most need it, autocorrect doesn't work.

@Waitwhat23

The Break It Down For Me Thread on the FWR board explains all this brilliantly.

I wonder if your friend is aware that the term TERF is a slur which is laden with violent connotations - www.terfisaslur.com .

It's not so bad if you make it -

Tired of
Explaining
Reality to
Fuckwits

Humans can’t change sex.

@theqentity

I have friends who are trans women. They are women. None of them want to beat your daughters at tennis or taunt you in the bogs. They just want to live in a way that feels most authentic to them.

@theqentity Your friends were observed to be boy children at birth. Now they are adult human males, men who have chosen to live as transwomen. They are, and always will be men. No amount of surgery or hormones will change this. If their bones are exhumed in 10,000 years time an archaeologist will almost certainly be able to identify them as male on sight alone, a forensic scientist will easily confirm it. They shouldn't even contemplate competing in female sports categories (that would be cheating) or entering female toilets/changing rooms/prisons/hospital wards or other safe spaces. Their sex is male and there are appropriate sex based sports categories and toilet facilities for men.

Cherish your friendships with them but remember they are men not women. Men are completely free to explore their "feminine" side without encroaching on women's safe spaces. They are just as likely to get a woman pregnant as any other man. Wanting to live in a way that feels most authentic to them is a fantasy, like those of us who'd like to win a big Euromillions Jackpot.

Humans can’t change sex.

He's had death threats for expressing that piece of biological reality.

Whether or not trans women are women, I am in the camp that believes they should be treated as women in society. Their experiences will be different, but my experiences will be very different to yours.

Should be 15 year old dd have to see their genitals in changing rooms and never, in her life have the choice whether or not she sees male genitals and in what context?

Transwomen are not women. If they were then there would be no need for the 'trans' bit. It's not transphobic to understand or point out the biological reality that human beings can't change sex.

People have been scared into silence on this issue by the TRAs and MRAs but I don't believe anything other than a very small minority really and truly believe that transwomen are women. It just defies every logical consideration.

Transwomen are men.
Transmen are women.