Woman on ward - complains about male patient. Is discharged.

[KittenKong]

Going on twitter. She was in a Women’s ward (signage says ‘women’ but later this was disputed by staff).

Another patient on ward ‘Annie’ (not real name). Visitor comes in ‘Hello Fred’.

Woman patient complains that there is a male in the ward. Staff come on handed and tell her that there isn’t (and that there were no single sec wards) - and treated as if she is a troublemaker.

Woman mysteriously discharged PDQ, although not quite feeling well enough in herself.

twitter.com/gillyism/status/1486596070096478209?s=21

Baroness is on the case.

No debate

No platforming

Forcing women out of employment

Acceptance without question

The Denton report with its' recommendation to stay under the radar in order to force policies and laws through by teaming with less controversial policies and laws

Public consultations being repeated if the 'right' answers aren't gotten the first time

Malicious reports to the Police

Shutting down forums where women discuss sex based rights while incel women hating forums continue because 'free speech'

The chilling effect.

Is that 'fostering dialogue'? Or is it silencing women?

@Innocenta, what you’re talking about re “fully transitioned” and a male “routinely is accepted in all social situations as a woman,” is passing privilege.

Who is going to gatekeep this? I am sure many trans women believe they pass, and some may pass very well on some media platforms.

I might fully parse Blaire White for eg as female, the next woman might not.

So, who is the great arbitrator of males who can pass and males who cannot, and who is going to explain the the males that do not, why?

I certainly would not want to be one saying ‘no’ and having that ‘dialog’ having seen the threats women receive, and further risk the police turning up to check my thinking.

According to Stonewall law - isn’t it transphobic to differentiate between trans people? So all transwomen and transmen are equal (regardless of having all or none of surgery/appearance change/gender stereotype performing), as are furries, fetishists, those with kinks, cross dressers, drag queens, non-binary people, etc, etc, etc…

Also - without gatekeeping genitals - how does one propose to determine who is a “fully” or “thoroughly” transitioned transperson to allow only those specific few onto their non-birth sex ward in the hospital?

Those born male go to the men’s ward, those born female go to the women’s. Anyone upset about biological reality in a hospital (or elsewhere) that functions according to science, medicine and fact, should have an alternative mixed sex space. Not co-opt female spaces.

@barleybadminton I've already said I don't believe trans women represent the same threat as men

But EVIDENCE, documented offences, show they DO. It shows that trans women offend at the same rate as men.

So you are demonstrably and proven wrong.

@barleybadminton Placing trans women on men's wards would not make hospitals safer for women and would make them much more dangerous for trans women, and that's without issues around dignity and whether trans women would just disengage from healthcare possibly leading to deaths.

Yes, it would make them much safer for women, and less dangerous for trans women.

It's interesting that you care naught for the dignity and safety of BORN ACTUAL women who, through no fault of their own, have a male on the ward. The male CHOSE to become a woman. The women didn't choose to be women. So therefore, the onus is on the one who made a choice that will impact actual women. And that women will stop seeking healthcare. Why don't you care about that? Why are male 'feelings' and 'identity' and dignity more important that WOMEN's?

And that's really the crux of this debate. Should trans women be placed at huge risk, have their dignity compromised, and possibly feel that healthcare is not available to them to prevent someone's discomfort at sharing a ward with a trans women or an infinitesimally tiny increased risk - a hypothetical risk in fact because the only published evidence to date says trans inclusion does not place women at increased risk.

Re-write: And that's really the crux of this debate. Should women be placed at huge risk, have their dignity compromised, and possibly feel that healthcare is not available to them to prevent a male's feelings and discomfort at sharing a ward with a men or an infinitesimally tiny increased risk - a hypothetical risk in fact because the only published evidence to date says trans inclusion places women at ENORMOUS RISK.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10249633/Rape-victim-forced-quit-therapy-sessions-feels-threatened-6ft-trans-woman.html

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/amp/

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg?fbclid=IwAR1JhugsOSdg58PzKpMAfvzqZVXxb7mRWs93qWqQyBA6vupiwnk1U_BJOOc

www.fox46.com/news/transgender-woman-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-10-year-old-girl-in-bathroom/

www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-and-lothians/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-girl-say-campaigners-140883?fbclid=IwAR2iMILdrlxCbawettem8KbyhpnRUfjpQIx8ZhPUiEeFGXCia1_soi-5JZI

www.foxnews.com/us/parents-speak-out-at-loudoun-county-school-board-meeting

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

transcrimeuk.com/

You should do your research before mouthing off, @barleybadminton . The EVIDENCE is in, it shows assaults on women by trans women are the SAME RATE as men. It already shows women are being turned away from women's facilities and choose not to get help. It shows that trans women are an ENORMOUS RISK to women.

You should have done your research. You are deeply, deeply and utterly ill-informed.

.

@Innocenta

So a person who, for example, has breasts, no penis, has had FFS (i.e. no longer has visible Adam's apple) and hair removal, and routinely is accepted in all social situations as a woman, should be put on a male ward.

I completely understand that this is the strict GC view. I'm saying I don't think it's realistic to expect this to happen. (And fwiw, I would be happy to share a ward with this person. Less hypothetical for me than for many, as I'm admitted many times a year, most years.)

Now, I am not saying that it's simple or that wanting single sex spaces is wrong. But as long as the GC stance is so vehemently dismissive and denigratory towards trans people, I don't see how it's possible to even have a dialogue (and yes, I'm aware it's just as bad if not worse going the other way).

But @Innocenta less than 3% of trans women actually fully transition. 97% retain their penis and testicles. It's simply not realistic to accommodate 97% of men with women, just on the off-chance the extremely rare 3% come on a ward. We make rules based on 'worst case scenario'. That's why we have women's toilets and men's toilets. It's too bad for trans women and those handful that have fully transitioned, but, we have to safeguard women. Even if that means the handful of trans women have to use a cubicle in the men's. That's the way it is. Otherwise what is your suggestion? Do away with ALL women's bathrooms and facilities?

There is no other way. It's hard for the handful that have fully transitioned, but, tough, we CANNOT risk women. These facilities were created to protect women. We can't let even one through. Otherwise it's free for all.

There are only two choices; a third/intersex space, or biological men with biological men and biological women with biological women which is the case now.

Those are the only two acceptable and workable choices.

The MRAs on this thread, if they are truly genuine, would be advocating for a third intersex space. Otherwise, they are just hurting women to placate men's feelings.

If you have DSD you are a man or a woman.

@Migrainesbythedozen Yes, I know many people choose not to have surgery. The reason why I was referring to that smaller group (those who do), is because I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that this group of people are largely aligned with the 'old school transsexuals'.

Now, as I said, I do understand that from a purist GC perspective, this makes no difference if someone is XY rather than XX. As I also said in another message, I think this is a perfectly valid take and should be genuinely respected as a viewpoint (ie no cancellations, etc).

But my question is a bit different, and really revolves around what we can expect the NHS to do. How are they actually going to balance competing, irreconcilable interests? There are so many ways in which I wish we could just flip a switch and make the world better for women (most of them have nothing to do with trans people at all)... but the fact is, we can't. And GC feminists can't instantaneously produce the sex-segregated arrangement they want, either. I guess I don't see any point in denying the effectiveness of trans-centric lobbying: I know compromise is not what you want on this. I get that. But it's what we have and likely what we'll continue to have. So how should it be done?

I think use of side rooms, and prohibiting punishing distressed women, would be a step forward.

And GC feminists can't instantaneously produce the sex-segregated arrangement they want, either.

It was a sex segregated arrangement. That's the point. Legal single sex spaces have been eroded. Hospital wards are meant to be single sex and there were fines imposed on hospital trusts who breached that rule. The fines now seem to have been dropped due to a mix of lobbying from special interest groups and the effects of the pandemic.

We're not asking for something new and outrageous. We are asking for our legal right to single sex spaces to be upheld and not eradicated to appease those who don't care about women's safety or dignity.

Why are you so invested in allowing some subset of males into womens spaces.

Do you think women gain anything from this.

Do you gain anything?

What special protection do you get if you help males out with this?

Why do you think male violence against other males is a problem wonen should solve for them?

No.

Just no.

Men and males will not give you anything or protect you or be your friend if you assist them in removing womens spaces.

All that will happen is you would have served your purpose and be in the same danger as the rest of us now

@Waitwhat23

And GC feminists can't instantaneously produce the sex-segregated arrangement they want, either.

It was a sex segregated arrangement. That's the point. Legal single sex spaces have been eroded. Hospital wards are meant to be single sex and there were fines imposed on hospital trusts who breached that rule. The fines now seem to have been dropped due to a mix of lobbying from special interest groups and the effects of the pandemic.

We're not asking for something new and outrageous. We are asking for our legal right to single sex spaces to be upheld and not eradicated to appease those who don't care about women's safety or dignity.

This!!!!!!! We already had sea segregated spaces. They were taken away without any consultation or permission to please men

We’re not asking for something new & difficult we didn’t have

We are asking for what we already had to be returned

2010 -

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/hospitals-to-face-fines-over-mixed-sex-wards-2053767.html

Now -

www.nationalworld.com/health/nhs-england-slammed-for-relaxing-single-sex-hospital-rules-after-fines-for-breaches-were-quietly-dropped-3545517

The reality is inno

That you have fallen fir and Neen emotionally blackmailed into believing that a a bunch of in tact middle age predominantly white males are somehow the most oppressed people on the planet and should be able to do what they like.

Do you think males are more oppressed than women? Why should women give up their protection for these males ?

Men and males will not give you anything or protect you or be your friend if you assist them in removing womens spaces.

All that will happen is you would have served your purpose and be in the same danger as the rest of us now

Yes. Exactly this.

@Whatwouldscullydo No, I think women are more oppressed.

Amd speaking of men and males. Where are They?

While women bend over backwards to be as kind as possible to them and grant them.access to unconsenting women and girls, where are they.

Are they camping to keep transwomen safe?

No

Are they sorting out their violent brothers so women and transwomen are safe?

No

Are they standing up amd showing us how they have made their spaces inclusive fir all gender non confirming males ?

No

When they moan about discrimination and women having more spaces than men what re they doing?

I'll tell you what men and males aren't

Theu aren't calling gyms and pools and exercise classes asking fir men/male only classes..no, they aren't wanted . Men and males don't really care abiut fighting fir their own spaces.

So what do they do Instead?.call gyms and pools etc and get the women only sessions stopped or forced to become mixed sex.

Why are you helping people who don't give a shit about you.

Then why are you agreeing to remove our rights there for our safety privacy and dignity for a males?

Why?

For what reason

Do you think transwomen give up a chubk of their pay?

Refuse to be promoted ?

Take on more child care and parebt caring roles?

Start organising the birthday parties etc

Do you think they give up any of their male.privilege at all?

Why do they need womens rights gone? Why?

3 women a week.are killed by their male partners

There are more transwomwn in prison fir murder than have Jean murdered in the UK over rhe last decade. They are the safest demographic in the UK

Why do women need to give up up rights to protect them specifically?

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

I'm really not interested in having a fight. NHS policy interests me a lot because I'm frequently admitted; it's very real and immediate to me. I am curious about how it will be managed going forward.

I am already familiar with GC opinions and don't need to hear it all over again, thanks. Happy to reply to anyone who wants to actually discuss NHS wards.

So you cannot answer why, when we have proven that male pattern behaviour is retained,

That they aren't in danger

Women become in danger

Mixed sex removes our protections,

Why males need admission to hospital wards?

What is your argument based on then?

And it's not GC "opinions"

We are dealing in facts here. Reported cases.

Statistics etc. These exist regardless.

Its not GC opinion that males in spaces make them.nore dangerous for women. It cant be simultaneously be an opinion of you Are GC and then safety be the entire case for housing transwomen on female wards.

Which is it?

People who are seeking to remove protections are either ones required required prove they are no longer needed.

www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/mixed-sex-accommodation/

@Whatwouldscullydo I'm not interested in having a battle with you; I only want to discuss the actual issue. As long as you continue to respond like that, I won't engage with it.

Quite happy to talk through the current state of affairs with anyone who's actually up for discussion.