Woman on ward - complains about male patient. Is discharged.

[KittenKong]

Going on twitter. She was in a Women’s ward (signage says ‘women’ but later this was disputed by staff).

Another patient on ward ‘Annie’ (not real name). Visitor comes in ‘Hello Fred’.

Woman patient complains that there is a male in the ward. Staff come on handed and tell her that there isn’t (and that there were no single sec wards) - and treated as if she is a troublemaker.

Woman mysteriously discharged PDQ, although not quite feeling well enough in herself.

twitter.com/gillyism/status/1486596070096478209?s=21

Baroness is on the case.

So a person who, for example, has breasts, no penis, has had FFS (i.e. no longer has visible Adam's apple) and hair removal, and routinely is accepted in all social situations as a woman, should be put on a male ward.

I completely understand that this is the strict GC view. I'm saying I don't think it's realistic to expect this to happen. (And fwiw, I would be happy to share a ward with this person. Less hypothetical for me than for many, as I'm admitted many times a year, most years.)

Now, I am not saying that it's simple or that wanting single sex spaces is wrong. But as long as the GC stance is so vehemently dismissive and denigratory towards trans people, I don't see how it's possible to even have a dialogue (and yes, I'm aware it's just as bad if not worse going the other way).

@Fridafever

Are you all aware that lots of wards are mixed sex anyway? I can’t see the NHS setting up third spaces when they aren’t even managing two.

Yes! I've been on many mixed sex wards.

Would you tell a man who list his penis through cancer he's a woman?

How offensive to think women are just males with bits chopped off

And how offensive to all men who through injury and disease have lost body parts . They don't become women.

I don't see how it's possible to even have a dialogue

I don't care about a dialogue. Single sex exemptions should simply be upheld as per the EA. I don't see why women should be forced to enter a dialogue to persuade men that women still need sex segregated space away from the male gaze.

@Whatwouldscullydo Not an equivalent situation, not what I said.

How many “fully transitioned” TW are there in the UK? How many actual natal women?

Where is the evidence about transwomen being more at risk from male violence Barley ? Men are violent to everybody , men women children, but it is women who bear the brunt of CSA, rape and domestic violence, not to mention the three women a week actually murdered. Spend your time usefully campaigning to have men respect TW in their spaces or for third spaces. You are not having ours.

@Rheopecticfluid I wish we didn't have to have dialogues about all kinds of things. But the reality is that there is a very vocal activist faction with strong ties to government, and women do need to be able to talk to them.

Bit whats the difference.

2 men have their penis removed . But only one is a woman?

That makes no sense.

A woman who has a mastectomy due to cancer doesn't become a man either.

@Whatwouldscullydo I never claimed that a woman who gets a mastectomy due to cancer becomes a man.

I think you're arguing something that's just not quite aligned with what I'm saying.

I would like.you to explain why a male who removes their penis is not a man.

What on earth has hair removal got to do with being a woman.

So Innocenta you are happy to exclude Males who have not transitioned from Female single sex spaces but would not exclude a fully transitioned transwoman. Aren't you being derogatory to the Males who have not transitioned with this thinking?

Innocenta why do you think we are now in the situation where men, including those with convictions for sexuallu assaulting women, are put onto female wards and single sex spaces simply by uttering the words "I identify as a woman" (no other changes required)? Where men can destroy women's sports? Where women are locked up with male rapists and made victims of sexual exposure on a daily basis by the state? Where rape victims are required to refer to their male rapists as 'she' and no longer has access to female only services to help her with her trauma but instead is told she must regrade her trauma and get over her bigotry and allow men into therapy groups? Where women are referred to as bodies with vaginas?

It started with being told to be kind, budge up and be a dear and let men who habe 'fully transitioned' appropriate your sex.

I'd still " socially be accepted " what ever that means as a woman if I got stuck on a mans ward.

So either you think people can physically change sex by removing their penis but only if they actually want to becuase otherwise every man who has no penis would also be be woman.

Or you think that is the job of sick women In hospital to provide the validation of a male by being in a ward along side them.

I'd like to know which it is

@Whatwouldscullydo

Bit whats the difference.

2 men have their penis removed . But only one is a woman?

That makes no sense.

A woman who has a mastectomy due to cancer doesn't become a man either.

Hormones for a start which make pretty significant changes to people's bodies. But also how they see themselves, and how other see and treat them. Womanhood is more than a biological reality as many feminists have observed, it is a social, legal, political and possibly even philosophical role. Trans women are not treated the same way as men in patriarchal society and that's real, just as real as biology. A man who has his penis removed for example but lives and presents as a man will not face the same levels of risk from sexual assault as a trans women, he will not be sexually objectified, he will not feel pressurised to live up to patriarchal beauty standards etc etc. In fact he will be able to go around in society unnoticed as anything other than a man with all the social privilege that comes from that. And these differences are real, they are not an invention, they impact on how people experience their lives and how much social power they have. There is more to human society and the interplay between the sexes (and genders) than basic biology as feminism has repeatedly pointed out.

@Whatwouldscullydo Hair removal is a very common procedure that trans women undertake as part of transitioning.

I don't think it's as straightforward as any one specific operation defining 'man' or 'woman'. I'm not saying it's invalid for GCs to understand those terms purely as XY and XX, but clearly there are other understandings in use.

@DialSquare How am I being derogatory?

By assuming the ones who haven't transitioned are not as safe as the transwoman who has.

Please explain how any of that is relevant to woman? Amd why it's womens job to absorb makes who don't feel safe amongst other males.

Women are a sex class. You don't choose it. You cant medicate or operate yourself into it.

This is the job of women to sort out.

@Lovelyricepudding I agree with you on most of those specifics. As I've mentioned, I actually have a lot of time for GC views when it comes to how I think certain individual issues and policies ought to be handled. I'm not coming to this from the "gender is all very important feelings and should never ever be questioned!" perspective at all.

What I am saying, though, is that I don't think it's helpful or likely to insist that someone whose transition has been very 'thorough' (as to procedures undertaken) should be in a ward devoted to their birth sex. I do understand the reasoning behind this, but it absolutely comes across as transphobic. That's how the overwhelming majority of people would likely see it, I think.

@DialSquare I disagree that anything I've said even verges on derogatory, but feel free to report my posts to MNHQ if you have concerns.

I still "read" transitioned males as males.

You can't change shape, gait, behaviour.

In fact, I can generally spot a male from the way they post on here.

Removal of genitals, FFS, hormones or addition of breast implants do not fool me, no matter what dress, accessories, feminine accoutrements the person adopts.

So, no thank you. Not in my ward.

I am GC. I believe there are certain single sex spaces that should exclude all Males no matter how they identify. Humans can not change sex. You accuse us of being derogatory to transwomen but all we are doing is trying to maintain single sex spaces for females by excluding ALL males.

There is no operation that can make a man into a woman. Cosmetic surgeries are just that - cosmetic. And in a hospital setting treating someone as the opposite sex just because they wish it could be fatal.