School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

@BedisBliss I did wonder of that was basically the case.

And I note yet another visitor to these parts intent on telling us a teenage boy is a girl cos magic

@BedisBliss

It is difficult for schools as the last thing they want is to be accused of being transphobic and there is an expectation for education to be inclusive. Many schools in this case rely on pupils and parents to 'force' the issue so they can absolve themselves of a 'politically incorrect' decision. (Teacher here.)

Bedisblis, are you telling us that schools are happy to throw all female pupils under the bus, for the sake of the hurty feelingz of a few?? Is this actually what is going on now, in practice, in schools?

Why, oh why, are none of you standing up against this sh*t?

The person probably has less sexual feelings towards your daughters than some of the other girls on the trip.

Sorry what now? Are you trying to suggest that trans girls have less sexual feelings than other males?

Is this a pre appearance of the “predatory lesbian” trope TRA are so fond of?

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

This is a girl in every sense that matters

///

I'm all ears to hear exactly what that means.

Maybe they like vacuuming...

Most teenaged boys are lovely. And girls are raped at school every day, including primary schools.

The rule is no mixed sex sleeping arrangements. No one is debating hurling this aside or saying it's no longer necessary (see rapes of girls in school.) So to say that some male children get a special exemption cos...... reasons...... is not ok, and is a safeguarding breach. It isn't difficult.

The children should never have been put in the position of having to decide whether this male child gets to sleep with females or not; it's not proactive inclusion, it singles the child out and makes them vulnerable to their peers, while putting the female children in a very difficult position to stand up for themselves under pressure to put the male child's wishes above their own. It's not good in any direction.

Plus once it is established that male children who wish to can sleep with the female children, what happens when there is a male child the female children emphatically do not want sleeping with them and don't feel safe with? The precedent is there, they'll have no option but to suck it up. This is also, no good, any way you slice it.

Trans children who do not wish to be accomodated with children of their own sex should have an alternative available to them. This does not mean mixed sex sleeping facilities for kids magically becomes ok.

And in a serious case review all fucking hell is going to break loose. Because 'could a reasonable adult have seen this coming?'

Oh yes.

What did you to prevent it?

We crossed our fingers, wished on the magic star and believed that nothing bad could ever happen to us.

And now you're in a position of gross dereliction of duty, and parents suing everything in sight, and Ofsted have gone berserk and put the school in special measures, how is that working out for you?

@Qwerty2019 Personally, I don't think names, clothes and hair matter very much. Bodies do.

As I think I've made clear, I do not consider A a risk, and I'm not suggesting anything about A's sexual feelings, please don't make nasty insinuations like this. My whole concern is that allowing mixed sex accommodation is a risky policy. The school shouldn't be expecting me and dd to make judgements bout an individual child - judgements which are then communicated to that child! - to manage that risk.

This isnt a 'boy' sharing a room with 2 girls. This is a girl in every sense that matters

No. It is not.

This is a trans girl, who is of the male sex. That will not ever change. This is a male child with a gender identity of being a girl, and sleeping arrangements are a sex based issue.

The school would never allow a male student who "felt like a male" to share a room with a female student who "felt like a female".

So they need to stand firm on this and stop allowing "feelings" to cloud what is basic fact - teens with vaginas and teens with penises shouldn't be sharing rooms on overnight school trips.

End off. Too fucking right I'd be that parent

I have experienced first hand a young person of this age born female transitioning to male. I have witnessed their journey, how the community helped him transition and the many, many difficulties they have had to go through. The way my own daughter (14) and the rest have benefitted from that journey has been immense. One of the most admirable parts has been how accepting the boys have been in making this a less harrowing experience for the person. Thankfully, not one person has brought up any issue about he previously being identified as she.

This isnt a 'boy' sharing a room with 2 girls. This is a girl in every sense that matters (2 years i read) who just happens to not quite be at the end of their journey. The person probably has less sexual feelings towards your daughters than some of the other girls on the trip.

Do you know this person personally, Qwerty? Is that how you're so sure about their feelings, sexual or otherwise?

On another note - you say they're a girl in "every sense that matters" - what exactly do you mean by that? What is a girl, if not an immature human female?

This isnt a 'boy' sharing a room with 2 girls. This is a girl in every sense that matters (2 years i read) who just happens to not quite be at the end of their journey.

What journey is that?

Are we already in the era of Star Trek where a body can be miraculously recreated atom by atom to become the other sex?

Just a reminder of the massive problem of sexual assaults and sexual bullying in schools

www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/b41fb362-6615-4e9b-950e-36859358e023

This isn’t about this particular child it’s about mixed sex sleeping arrangements & whether boys and girls however they identify should be sleeping in rooms together unsupervised

@Qwerty2019

I have experienced first hand a young person of this age born female transitioning to male. I have witnessed their journey, how the community helped him transition and the many, many difficulties they have had to go through. The way my own daughter (14) and the rest have benefitted from that journey has been immense. One of the most admirable parts has been how accepting the boys have been in making this a less harrowing experience for the person. Thankfully, not one person has brought up any issue about he previously being identified as she.

How is any of that relevant to safeguarding?

their journey

Precisely. Its theirs. Nothing to do with anyone else. They owe then nothing. They have zero responsibility to be a part of it. No one has to consent to that. Nor be forced into complying with it. That's their families job. Nothing to do with anyone else.

@Qwerty2019

I have experienced first hand a young person of this age born female transitioning to male. I have witnessed their journey, how the community helped him transition and the many, many difficulties they have had to go through. The way my own daughter (14) and the rest have benefitted from that journey has been immense. One of the most admirable parts has been how accepting the boys have been in making this a less harrowing experience for the person. Thankfully, not one person has brought up any issue about he previously being identified as she.

Yes because trans children are all the same aren't they? Same way teenage boys are all the same?

That’s nice qwerty - given we’re talking about a teenage boy transitioning to be a girl, not the other way around, it’s completely irrelevant

Also girls are not support humans but fully fledged ppl in their own right

@Qwerty2019

I cant believe some of the comments on here. This isnt a 'boy' sharing a room with 2 girls. This is a girl in every sense that matters (2 years i read) who just happens to not quite be at the end of their journey. The person probably has less sexual feelings towards your daughters than some of the other girls on the trip.

Putting aside the fact that your daughter has shown maturity in welcoming the situation i wonder how your daughter feels about your lack of trust in her own standards to worry about something untoward might occur.

By all means make it as safe an environment as possible, but your daughter sounds like she is much more mature than most on here.

And the reason you think this kid isn't likely to be attracted to the girls in question is....?

This isnt a 'boy' sharing a room with 2 girls. This is a girl in every sense that matters (2 years i read) who just happens to not quite be at the end of their journey.

And this nonsense is precisely why the school needs challenging to uphold normal safeguarding standards.

This is a boy. At 14 they may have "socially transitioned", i.e. dress up as a girl and use a girl's name, but other than that they will be a physically normal boy.

who just happens to not quite be at the end of their journey.

None of them are at the end of their journey, they are teenagers. That's why adults make decisions for them in some situations, because they aren't adults.

I'm blown away by some of the responses.

Had someone come on here and started a thread

"AIBU to be pissed off that school allowed my 14yo to share a room on a trip with two of her male friends in the same year"

I'd imagine the responses would be very different.

Do you think that, if the school has encouraged DC to arrange amongst themselves who rooms with whom, that they would then insist on individuals sharing with someone they dislike? Do you think it would be up to parents to go whining to the SLT about their little darling choosing to share a room with X who the parents disapprove of because X is gay/a different religion/a different social class?
Teenagers sharing rooms on school trips are usually allowed to choose roommates to avoid being stuck with the peer they dislike or are scared of. It wouldn't be that difficult for a transphobic teenager to avoid sharing with a trans kid that they didn't like. If you could just let go of the obsessive anti-trans panicking, you might make your own lives a bit easier, let alone the lives of your poor DC.

parents to go whining to the SLT about their little darling choosing to share a room with X who the parents disapprove of because X is gay/a different religion/a different social class?

Huh? Are you on glue?

Ahahaha no wreath they’re really not. Your lack of knowledge of safeguarding is so bad it’s almost funny

My friend is a teacher and has regularly supervised over seas trips of mixed sex teenagers. There is no way on gods earth they’d even contemplate letting boys and girls share hotel rooms however much they might want to . Cos you see - and this the salient point - THEY ARE CHILDREN

If you could just let go of the obsessive anti-trans panicking, you might make your own lives a bit easier, let alone the lives of your poor DC

Are u saying safe guarding is transphobic?

Amd that trans people are unable to comply so shouldn't have to?

That's a low bar. I'd say that's transphobic tbh

Half the teenage population can potentially get pregnant. The other half does the impregnating. Is this startling new information for some people? Where the fuck are the adults at this school?