School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

I wonder if some of you are incapable of teaching your teenagers manners if you believe that all teenage boys are dangerous. Some are (as some members of any group or category one cares to name can be dangerous) but lots of teenage boys and young men, let alone trans teenagers of any gender, are sweet, shy, goodhearted and would never harass their friends.
Sadly the insistence that trans people are a menace is copying the exact pattern of the homophobia of the past - they're all predatory, all evil, all abnormal waaaa!

you have bought into the scaremongering that all trans people are predators.

No.

You appear to have bought into the hysteria that anything to do with protecting women and girls from potential harm is transphobia.

What have manners got to do with safguarding ?

You don't get a free pass fir behaving or being nice

Exactly what has safeguarding got to do with manners and being sweet and shy

It’s called safeguarding for a reason and it is for everyone. That includes the sweet and shy

No-one is saying "all teen boys are dangerous".

But no-one can tell from the outside which boys, if any, may pose a threat.

So, boys and girls are separated for sleeping and washing, in the interests of privacy and safeguarding. There can be no accusations against the boys. There can be no issues with girls having their spaces invaded. Everyone is protected.

I'm sure you're right that the majority of boys are nice. But if you know how to spot a predator from the pack reliably, please do tell the rest of humanity because that would make these issues vanish.

I'm not sure what's more shocking, the school asking 14 year olds to safeguard themselves (or not), or people here claiming posters who prioritise safeguarding are nasty bigots. How the hell have we got here?!*

*rhetorical, obviously

So it's ok to do away with safeguarding if most of the group are sweet?

If the boys are all so sweet then the transgirl will be perfectly fine with them then. I mean no ones suggesting that the other girls are merely props to affirm a child's identity would they? I mean girls are more than that surely?

Please god, i hope wreath21 is not in a position of responsibility over children. How many of your nice sweet teenage boys are accessing hard core porn on the internet, sharing naked pictures of girls they know between themselves, sending unsolicited dick pics to their peers? The answer to that question is, you have no fucking clue how many. AND THAT IS WHY WE HAVE SAFEGUARDING.

@Wreath21

I wonder if some of you are incapable of teaching your teenagers manners if you believe that all teenage boys are dangerous. Some are (as some members of any group or category one cares to name can be dangerous) but lots of teenage boys and young men, let alone trans teenagers of any gender, are sweet, shy, goodhearted and would never harass their friends. Sadly the insistence that trans people are a menace is copying the exact pattern of the homophobia of the past - they're all predatory, all evil, all abnormal waaaa!

Does this mean you are against all separate spaces and services for men and women, boys and girls? Just everyone in together, all the time?

The thing is, once you establish the precedent that trans girls can share on a mixed sex basis, you're kind of stuck with it (ie the school is stuck with it). What happens if, next time, the person is someone the girls are not comfortable with? Then it becomes much harder for the girls/school to say no to sharing and easier for the trans girl to feel hurt or the girls to feel guilty/unkind.

@Wreath21

I wonder if some of you are incapable of teaching your teenagers manners if you believe that all teenage boys are dangerous. Some are (as some members of any group or category one cares to name can be dangerous) but lots of teenage boys and young men, let alone trans teenagers of any gender, are sweet, shy, goodhearted and would never harass their friends. Sadly the insistence that trans people are a menace is copying the exact pattern of the homophobia of the past - they're all predatory, all evil, all abnormal waaaa!

Please explain what this has to do with safeguarding?

At all?

Do we safeguard based on the 'sweet, shy, goodhearted' ones? or is safeguarding in place for every one? Regardless of how sweet?

Sadly the insistence that trans people are a menace is copying the exact pattern of the homophobia of the past - they're all predatory, all evil, all abnormal waaaa!

Do crack on with your hyperbolic scolding. The more people see this type of post, the more they start thinking that they need to scratch the surface to see why someone would post such a thing.

And having people start actually reading the facts, and what is protocols around this are, and should be, from original sources, the more people realise your post is unfounded. No one here believes they're all predatory. But ONLY a fool would believe the opposite either.

So the position is that the school have told the children that I've vetoed the arrangement. Great.

School policy is not to have a policy, and to treat every case individually, and say that they're following local authority advice. I have said that I think this might sound nice, but is ultimately unfair on those individuals, and the children/parents who are put in the position of having to look like they're accepting or rejecting them personally. Before you even start on the risks they're opening up/ precedent set.

This is a terrible policy idea. There is a reason the rooms are single sex and that doesn't change because of gender identity.

I'd also point out that this is a risk for the male student. Kids of 14 are not noted always for their good judgement, it's perfectly possible something could happen where a pretty normal male makes a bad choice about fooling around or jokes that makes the girls uncomfortable, they don't quite know how to handle it as an older person might, it escalates, and then there is some kind of sexual offence being attributed to this student.

That is not a good way to start out your teenage years.

I'd talk to the school, ask them what their line will be if something goes wrong.

I'd check with the LA. Some have removed the same guidance after it was threatened with legal action.

And some have left the diversity champions scheme.

I don't believe all teenage boys are dangerous. Most of them are delightful. I don't believe all men are dangerous. Most of them are great. I still don't want to take my clothes off or go to sleep in a room with any of them other than my husband.

And as for manners, what's that got to do with anything? The family friend who turned out to be a paedophile had beautiful manners. Charming. Funny. Great company. Prolific, horrific child abuser.

Allowing friends to have a say in who they share rooms seems appropriate at this age. Would you rather she was obliged to share a room with someone of the same sex that she didn't know well and felt more uncomfortable around?

There's a very concerning thread on mumsnet at the moment about serious historic sexual and physical abuse from a 12 year old girl (next door neighbour) towards the 9 year old DD of the poster.

Sex is no guarantee of additional safety, but established friendships which are viewed to be good ones by the adults that know the teenagers are probably more likely to be a protective factor.

That is a bullshit shifting of responsibility.
Take it to the govenors.

If this is the stance, then why have you never been asked what your position would on mixed sex sleeping arrangements involving a transidentified male child, before it became a reality with real people involved and all those complexities

It would be a very simple thing to do and would save ALOT of accusations of transphobia, and would cover the schools arse when it all goes tits up.

@SantaClawsServiette This is what I tried to explain to the school. This isn't just about the risk to the girls in such a situation.

Dd says A is not male

This is why your daughter is too young for this. She doesn't seem to understand the difference between biology and gender identity.

@Wreath21

FFS. This is your DD's friend who she likes and trusts, and you are trying to impose your own ignorant bigotry on the friendship group. The kids were told that they could choose who they shared a room with, an they did so. Now you want to meddle, embarrass your DD and hurt her friend's feelings because you have bought into the scaremongering that all trans people are predators.

Maybe consider how you would be behaving if DD's friend was a lesbian (while DD isn't)?

Mr Wilkinson is a very nice PE teacher. He still shouldn't be supervising the girls getting changed.

Safeguarding is about making sure the worse case scenario is risk assessed. Risk assessment should be able to apply to all future situations. Not 'well we let Sam share a couple of years ago because Sam in nice but April is a bit weird so we won't allow it.'

Besides since when do adults delegate safeguarding to the very same kids they are responsible for safeguarding.

Besides since when do adults delegate safeguarding to the very same kids they are responsible for safeguarding.

Yes. I always wonder when I see posts like 'at this age they should be able to choose who they want to share a room with'. Really?

*Surely the question to ask the school is whether they would agree to a girl sharing with her non-trans male best mate if they were both happy with that?

And if not, why not?*

Precisely.

The school are making you do their difficult job here so you can be the bad guy and not them.

I think take it to the Local Authority or the school governors. Ask about policies on mixed sex sleeping arrangements. If the policy is the children choose then this needs reviewing. I’m a very new school governor but even I know that’s not a safe policy!