School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

@suggestionsplease1

Allowing friends to have a say in who they share rooms seems appropriate at this age. Would you rather she was obliged to share a room with someone of the same sex that she didn't know well and felt more uncomfortable around?

There's a very concerning thread on mumsnet at the moment about serious historic sexual and physical abuse from a 12 year old girl (next door neighbour) towards the 9 year old DD of the poster.

Sex is no guarantee of additional safety, but established friendships which are viewed to be good ones by the adults that know the teenagers are probably more likely to be a protective factor.

Yes, that's a worry - same-sex spaces don't guarantee safety for exactly this reason.

But I do still believe that same-sex spaces do improve safety, and offer a level of privacy that mixed-sex spaces cannot. If this transgirl has to get undressed in front of biological girls, as they would do if sharing a room, would that not be embarrassing for all concerned?

I WISH my parents had been given the choice; they are so much easier to manipulate than our teachers.

That last sentence is hilarious. Person who wrote this knows it is not correct for teenagers of the opposite sex to share sleeping arrangements as why else would they want to 'manipulate'? If it was all ok then why would parents or school object, right?

The amount of people who take safeguarding personally or see it as outdated is mindboggling... as if Jimmy Savillen, Epstein, weinstein and the catholic church scandals never happened.

It’s interesting the number of visitors this thread is attracting….,

OP I’d be going pretty nuclear on the school now & taking it to the governors. First of all they offload their statutory safeguarding duties onto 14 year olds Abd then when you point out the massive problem in them doing this, they shift the ‘Blame’ on to you

Is the actual school run by 14 year old as well

Same sex spaces don't guarantee safety of course. (That's a horrible, awful case.) Males and females both commit, and can be on the receiving end of unwanted sexual behaviour. Who stands to benefit if we develop decisions or policy ignoring the clear pattern of who is most likely to do what to whom, and the pattern of who is impacted. The biggest predictor is sex.

The simple question here is "who holds the liability for mixed sex sleeping arrangements on a school trip should something go wrong because the arrangements are mixed sex?"

That will focus everyone's minds pretty damn quick, I should think.

I think that post was parody, but then again on this thread nothing would surprise me.

As a teacher, I am shocked that it has got to this stage. Is transgirl allowed to change in girls changing room for PE or use girls toilet in school? Of course not, measures will have been put in place to protect all parties.
This should not happen as again, everyone needs to be protected. Neither pupils nor parents, cannot and should not be able to make safeguarding decisions for the school.

So on this occasion OPs DD and her fiend are ok with this (are they all though, really? No peer pressure, #BeKind at play?) as they know the transgirl.

What happens next time if it's someone they aren't friends with or a child new to the school? This time they aren't comfortable. "But girls, you didn't mind when Abby bunked with you so why are you being silly now?".

Safeguarding policy should have NOTHING TO DO WHATSOEVER with hurt feelings.

@Itsalmostanaccessory

I had sleepovers with male friends at that age. We lived on the same block, no other girls. They were my best friends and we grew up together. We went camping and on trips and had sleepovers. Nothing inappropriate or dangerous. We were all best friends.

This isnt the school mandating the girls must share with a trans girl and forcing the situation whilst making a lot of girls uncomfortable. This is friends choosing to share a room and everyone is happy. I wouldnt care if the person identified as trans or not. They're great friends, they're not in any sort of romantic relationship and I dont see the issue with them sharing.

And that could all be fine on a holiday, say. but not on a school trip where safeguarding should come first.

Yup, as others have said, now you need to check your LA's safeguarding policies. They should be online. Check for their policies re transgender pupils - the relevant safeguarding disaster may well be hidden in that document , ie that 'trans' pupils can use the facilities/dormitories of their chosen gender!

As said above, most LA's have been threatened with legal action and forced to withdraw these documents. So if yours still has this nonsense, threaten them with legal action.

You are now That Parent. The safety of so many girls is resting on your shoulders. So no pressure!!

Good luck

@Missey85

But their not forcing anything on anyone! Your daughter wants to share a room with her friend your daughter's right you are transphobic cut out with the "safeguarding" bullshit and admit Your the one with the problem lucky your daughter seems nicer than you are!

Please can you point out precisely what OP has said which is transphobic? Or is it just the challenge and pushback you object to?

@Torunette

The simple question here is "who holds the liability for mixed sex sleeping arrangements on a school trip should something go wrong because the arrangements are mixed sex?"

That will focus everyone's minds pretty damn quick, I should think.

Absolutely.

Er the lesbian thing, btw, -

• These young girls all have the same basic anatomy so there's no where near the same awkwardness glimpsing a same sexed naked body compared to say, a penis.

• It's highly, highly unlikely one of these girls could be subject to sexual assault from another female. A biological male child however...

So that argument is all bollocks. And a bit homophobic to conflate the two.

I'll happily hurt the feelings of 1000+ entitled biological men/boys if it maintains the dignity and boundaries of one girl.

For the person complaining that not all trans people are predators, do you want your bank to take steps to prevent staff fraudulently helping themselves to your money? I work in finance. We happily accept that most of our staff are honest and law abiding. We still perform regular criminal and financial checks, and put controls in place so if anyone attempted fraud etc it would be either stopped at source or detected rapidly. Not one person has ever complained about this, because they like to know that their money is well looked after. If you’re happy that, while it’s a very small risk, we put rules in place to prevent it why would you not be happy with this. It’s a small risk but it is a risk

Not really the same, but my son's boyfriend is a trans boy and if the school let them share a room on a school trip, not only would they probably be shagging in it, one of them (the biologically female one!) could end up pregnant. I would not be impressed at the school condoning that even if the parents do.

@Wreath21

I wonder if some of you are incapable of teaching your teenagers manners if you believe that all teenage boys are dangerous. Some are (as some members of any group or category one cares to name can be dangerous) but lots of teenage boys and young men, let alone trans teenagers of any gender, are sweet, shy, goodhearted and would never harass their friends. Sadly the insistence that trans people are a menace is copying the exact pattern of the homophobia of the past - they're all predatory, all evil, all abnormal waaaa!

I wonder if some of you are incapable of teaching your teenagers manners if you believe that all teenage boys are dangerous.

• Are you even remotely aware of how high rates of sexual assaults are in our schools these days? Maybe parents of transgirls should also be reminded of the importance of manners in their child too.

////
Some are (as some members of any group or category one cares to name can be dangerous) but lots of teenage boys and young men, let alone trans teenagers of any gender, are sweet, shy, goodhearted and would never harass their friends.

• See in theory this is lovely however safeguarding is based on facts not feelings.

//////////
Sadly the insistence that trans people are a menace is copying the exact pattern of the homophobia of the past - they're all predatory, all evil, all abnormal waaaa!

And this is a crap comparison to make, gender identity is not the same as sexual orientation.

@Missey85

But their not forcing anything on anyone! Your daughter wants to share a room with her friend your daughter's right you are transphobic cut out with the "safeguarding" bullshit and admit Your the one with the problem lucky your daughter seems nicer than you are!

You are exactly why women are forced into things. OP is asking reasonable questions and you are Brandi g her transphobic, how can a 14 year old be expected to stand up to the same pressure.

Sex is no guarantee of additional safety

/////

Agreed however I think we can all agree that the risk goes through the roof with a male as opposed to a female.

It is difficult for schools as the last thing they want is to be accused of being transphobic and there is an expectation for education to be inclusive. Many schools in this case rely on pupils and parents to 'force' the issue so they can absolve themselves of a 'politically incorrect' decision. (Teacher here.)

I cant believe some of the comments on here. This isnt a 'boy' sharing a room with 2 girls. This is a girl in every sense that matters (2 years i read) who just happens to not quite be at the end of their journey. The person probably has less sexual feelings towards your daughters than some of the other girls on the trip.

Putting aside the fact that your daughter has shown maturity in welcoming the situation i wonder how your daughter feels about your lack of trust in her own standards to worry about something untoward might occur.

By all means make it as safe an environment as possible, but your daughter sounds like she is much more mature than most on here.

@Qwerty2019

I cant believe some of the comments on here. This isnt a 'boy' sharing a room with 2 girls. This is a girl in every sense that matters (2 years i read) who just happens to not quite be at the end of their journey. The person probably has less sexual feelings towards your daughters than some of the other girls on the trip.

Putting aside the fact that your daughter has shown maturity in welcoming the situation i wonder how your daughter feels about your lack of trust in her own standards to worry about something untoward might occur.

By all means make it as safe an environment as possible, but your daughter sounds like she is much more mature than most on here.

The only way to be a girl is to be biologically female and not yet an adult. This is a male child in every sense that matters, and the only way it matters, which is when the sex differences between children are relevant. Having mixed sex accommodation for teenagers on a school trip is an obvious and serious safeguarding fail. The internal feelings of the trans identified child are not relevant to that safeguarding.

Have you actually read any of the comments on this thread? Do you have any experience of education, young people, risk assessment, safeguarding??

What's a girl querty

The only sense that matters is how you were born.

Rooms aren't decided on which wears pink skirts.

They won't even legally be female. No under 18s get a GRC. This is a biological and legal male.

This is a girl in every sense that matters

///

I'm all ears to hear exactly what that means.

The school sounds negligent in their safeguarding responsibilities. Let’s not forget there are children and adolescents who have been sexually abused who have poor boundaries and are at risk of exploitation, many of whom are currently flying under the radar and not known to teachers or social services. They might not object to being cajoled into activity which they don’t want as they’ve have been told their whole lives they don’t get a choice and just have to go along with what the other person wants. I worry about those children (and we are talking about children here) in a mixed sex set-up where they already know raising a concern will get them labelled a trouble-maker or cast out of their friendship group. The trans child is not the only child with vulnerabilities in this scenario. Safeguarding keeps every child safe.

Well done for drawing a line OP.