School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

Also....its not anti trans to suggest that someone born male has a male body. In fact, surely it's his innate male-Ness which, in contrast to his feelings on his own body, which means this person refers to themselves as Trans to begin with?

So one has to acknowledge one's own biological sex in order to then trans "against" it.

I think a previous poster's point about getting the school to explicitly confirm they'd fully support all & any babies (pregnancies, abortions etc) born as a result of their mixed sex accommodation policy (or lack of) on their school trips from now on is a good one. Maybe the head would like a quick chat with the biology teachers before signing off.....

Bonkers to attempt to push this one back down to the CHILDREN concerned, that's not how safeguarding works ffs.

@Wreath21

Do you think that, if the school has encouraged DC to arrange amongst themselves who rooms with whom, that they would then insist on individuals sharing with someone they dislike? Do you think it would be up to parents to go whining to the SLT about their little darling choosing to share a room with X who the parents disapprove of because X is gay/a different religion/a different social class? Teenagers sharing rooms on school trips are usually allowed to choose roommates to avoid being stuck with the peer they dislike or are scared of. It wouldn't be that difficult for a transphobic teenager to avoid sharing with a trans kid that they didn't like. If you could just let go of the obsessive anti-trans panicking, you might make your own lives a bit easier, let alone the lives of your poor DC.

So ignoring the trans issues, 14 year old Sally wants to share a room with her 14 year old boyfriend - and you're ok with that? Really?

Read my comment @oldwomanwhoruns and the subtext I obviously failed to convey.

The point I'm making is that schools are run by the politically correct and often spineless who disregard staff and only 'move' if parents complain. I have seen so many injustices and wish parents would push - ordinary teachers have no power and fear Competency charges from bullying Heads.....in many cases.

OP I agree with previous posters, this is aside from being absolute lunacy a genuine safeguarding issue that the school ought to be managing, not placing in the realms of 3 x 14 year old girls.
In law this child is a biological male and no way on earth would my 1 year old daughter be sharing a room on this basis. Regardless of how nice the child is, this sets a grievous precedent which should be challenged in the strongest terms. I would be doing this in writing with the school, requesting responses in full in writing too. I suspect they may amend plans then.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Just a reminder of the massive problem of sexual assaults and sexual bullying in schools

www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/b41fb362-6615-4e9b-950e-36859358e023

This isn’t about this particular child it’s about mixed sex sleeping arrangements & whether boys and girls however they identify should be sleeping in rooms together unsupervised

This.

Schools (and prisons) skirt around the issue. Clearly this pupil needs their own room as a safeguarding issue and parents need to suck up the cost...though the school will fear backlash from parents of said pupil....and will fear bad press.

@Wreath21

Do you think that, if the school has encouraged DC to arrange amongst themselves who rooms with whom, that they would then insist on individuals sharing with someone they dislike? Do you think it would be up to parents to go whining to the SLT about their little darling choosing to share a room with X who the parents disapprove of because X is gay/a different religion/a different social class? Teenagers sharing rooms on school trips are usually allowed to choose roommates to avoid being stuck with the peer they dislike or are scared of. It wouldn't be that difficult for a transphobic teenager to avoid sharing with a trans kid that they didn't like. If you could just let go of the obsessive anti-trans panicking, you might make your own lives a bit easier, let alone the lives of your poor DC.

You do realise there are times when sex actually matters. And that it is not transphobic to admit that. There are many trans people who agree that sex matters and that safeguarding should be based on sex.

So. Are you a spokesperson for the trans community? And are you happy to ignore those trans people who disagree with you? Because....?

Would you object to your daughter sharing rooms with a lesbian?

@Qwerty2019

I have experienced first hand a young person of this age born female transitioning to male. I have witnessed their journey, how the community helped him transition and the many, many difficulties they have had to go through. The way my own daughter (14) and the rest have benefitted from that journey has been immense. One of the most admirable parts has been how accepting the boys have been in making this a less harrowing experience for the person. Thankfully, not one person has brought up any issue about he previously being identified as she.

And why does the "journey" of one child trump that of many others who are also navigating the shit show of puberty? What if just one biological girl felt highly uncomfortable with these arrangements, should she just STFU and be kind?

I'm a bit at how a persons transitioning should benefit others actually.

@Whatwouldscullydo

their journey

Precisely. Its theirs. Nothing to do with anyone else. They owe then nothing. They have zero responsibility to be a part of it. No one has to consent to that. Nor be forced into complying with it. That's their families job. Nothing to do with anyone else.

This is what I was trying to articulate. Very badly. Thanks scully.

@Qwerty2019

I am also keen to know in what sense a male person is a girl - please enlighten us?

If the 'lesbian' had a penis, fuck yes

The numbers are confusing me a bit. If this is a three bedroom house, with 3 to each room, that is only 9 children. That seems very few for a school trip. Is it possible that girls are being housed in one house and boys in another?

If that's the case it's not just the op's dd and the other girl's decision - there are another 6 girls who will, most likely, be forced to share a house (and possibly a bathroom, depending on setup). Have they been asked?

I have experienced first hand a young person of this age born female transitioning to male.

Yes, many of us have witnessed it amongst our children's friends, or even in some poster's cases, their own children. Despite how many people try to frame the poster's on this board, a good many of us have direct relevant experience.

I have witnessed their journey, how the community helped him transition and the many, many difficulties they have had to go through. The way my own daughter (14) and the rest have benefitted from that journey has been immense. One of the most admirable parts has been how accepting the boys have been in making this a less harrowing experience for the person. Thankfully, not one person has brought up any issue about he previously being identified as she.

Please do explain how any other child benefits from that child's 'journey'? Because the group of trans friends my teen have, every single one of them has very poor mental health. (there are 5 of them in a group of 7 friends) And that mental health is not getting any better despite extensive support from the school, the parents and the friends.

I'm a primary teacher not secondary. However, the decision is to be made by the group leader who also completes the risk assessments. There is (or should be) a member of staff who has competed their group leader training. I don't remember it covering transgender but this is not to be decided by a 14 year old and whether they're 'OK with it'. The risk assessment should be checked with SLT and possibly the local authority/academy lead. Under the equality act 2010 sex is a protected characteristic and separate sleeping areas need to be provided. Gender (unless they have a GRC) is not covered. The school will be leaving themselves wide open to safeguarding concerns if they go ahead with this. Adults need to saying no to this and pushing back

This thread is genuinely scary. Despite everything we have learned about safeguarding (assume everyone is a risk, identify worse case scenarios, put in place plans to mitigate risks, do not create sacred castes) , despite the clear and obvious risks that arise from mixed sex sleeping arrangements amongst teens, despite the obvious difficulties this would create for the girls who want to say no, there are multiple parents on here that think this is ok. My mind is genuinely boggled. In the words of Magdalen Berns, your minds are so open your brains have fallen out.

@beachcitygirl

Would you object to your daughter sharing rooms with a lesbian?

Are you aware that a lesbian isn't a trans-woman?

[quote ServeBacon]**@foodfiend

they are all friends anyway and supported her thru her transition and coming out at school. Parents know the teen group well - it's a non-issue really.[/quote]
Eh? Are you the parent of the transgirl? Or one of the teachers. I don't think it's your place to say that its a non issue about somebody else's daughter. And this goes against the rules of mixed sex accomodation.

Ah, so he's a girl in "every sense that matters".

So...what are the ways that do matter, and those that don't?

And it's not about this particular kid anyway - it's about the precedent it sets, and the inappropriate shunting of responsibility for safeguarding onto a vulnerable group.

@beachcitygirl

Would you object to your daughter sharing rooms with a lesbian?

Lesbians are women and girls. Same sex attracted. So why would there be an issue with that? There is a massive safeguarding issue when schools decide to segregate according to gender identity rather than biological sex.

@LarissaFeodorovna

Surely the question to ask the school is whether they would agree to a girl sharing with her non-trans male best mate if they were both happy with that?

And if not, why not?

The school need a rocket up their backside, because they have not bothered to think this through and by fudging the issue have created a gap in their safeguarding you could drive a bus through.

Agree with this. Yet again I feel that the adults have left the building.

I would just put my foot down and tell my child that there will be no sleeping arrangements that could result in pregnancy. You may not be able to influence school policy, but I would make it very explicit to the school that you do not give your own minor child permission for mixed sex sleeping accommodations.

So...what are the ways that do matter, and those that don't?

Lipstick and penises, respectively?

One of the most admirable parts has been how accepting the boys have been in making this a less harrowing experience for the person.

A (male) cynic like me would suggest that teenage boys can spot an easy opportunity to get laid. A lot of boys will tell a girl anything she wants to hear to get into her pants.

A girl desperate for affirmation of her identity from a boy is a potentially easy mark... Female "boys" are going to be quite popular. And more easily available, if they're foolish enough to let them sleep with the boys.

@Qwerty2019

I have experienced first hand a young person of this age born female transitioning to male. I have witnessed their journey, how the community helped him transition and the many, many difficulties they have had to go through. The way my own daughter (14) and the rest have benefitted from that journey has been immense. One of the most admirable parts has been how accepting the boys have been in making this a less harrowing experience for the person. Thankfully, not one person has brought up any issue about he previously being identified as she.

This child is a male identifying as a girl. With a penis, sexually fertile, and quite possibly sexually attracted to girls.

So how is this different than allowing any other male teenager to sleep with the girls?