School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

bleating

Who is bleating on here?

It is the language that is being used that is particularly telling.

Like

random speculation and disaster planning for things that aren’t going to happen

Shows just how you regard safeguarding and anyone who believes that safeguarding should have no exceptions and no exemptions for any special groups.

To be clear, I read this as you believe that anyone using appropriate safeguards are indulging in random speculation and disaster planning for things that aren’t going to happen

Please clarify if this was not what you have meant.

You ask when have you demonised parents.

I have just posted most recent posts using language that is doing so.

If it should simply be a matter of parental veto, this would mean treating some children inequitably, because they came from a household where their parents were unengaged, or neglectful or unaware of the difference between a girl, transgirl, boy and transboy. Which in turn would disproportionately affect children from households where a parent had a learning disability or poor literacy in English.

This is discrimination, and it reminds me very much of the attitude in earlier decades that some women ( upper class ones) had to be treated with respect, and that men could "take liberties" with the young women whose parents were working class and could do nothing about it.

Why would you decide differently. What do you see as the difference between a teenage boy and a transgirl

No grc
No drugs
No.surgery as children

So you merely have a dress and a sentence to go on.

I'm honest. Do you believe me? Good then ill take.yoir bank.card and PIN then please. Will u give it to me?

Why would your protect your money more than your dd?

At least OP can feel vindicated given the support for her position on here, might make feeling like the ‘bad guy’ a little more palatable even if she has buggered off.

Her position was merely that safguarding was upheld. Not removed on the say so or unverifiable.identities of children

@CrymeaRvr

I’m more than happy being the ‘bad guy’ to my kids when I feel it’s needed, and. I parent should be on here bleating about being made to feel like the ‘bad guy’ when they feel they’re doing the right thing for their child. Our kids flippin hate on sometimes, but that’s parenting.

If you see the OP's issues as 'bleating' then you really need to do some reading around this, including actually reading the OP's posts and those of other parents dealing with this situation. Apart from the unnecessary rudeness, it's a whole lot more complicated than you have realised.

random speculation and disaster planning for things that aren’t going to happen = the political lobby's view of safeguarding all children when it gets in the way of the wishes of a male person who identifies as TQ+

shrug, whatever, it doesn't matter, more fool you for caring/the TQ+ person is ok = the political lobby's view after a female person has been harmed by interesting TQ+ male centric high risk experiments.

Female people have to care about this stuff for female people and children because frankly at this point, no one else does. Common sense, conscience, accountability, responsible adults, duty of care, integrity, equality, all of that seems to be written in all the policies but they have become what Pratchett used to refer to as 'write only documents'.

@CrymeaRvr

At least OP can feel vindicated given the support for her position on here, might make feeling like the ‘bad guy’ a little more palatable even if she has buggered off.

Upholding safeguarding never makes someone the bad guy.

The bad guy is someone that seeks to smash up safeguards at the expense of women and girls.

@CrymeaRvr

At least OP can feel vindicated given the support for her position on here, might make feeling like the ‘bad guy’ a little more palatable even if she has buggered off.

The only poster that I remember talking about 'bad guy' was in fact, ships.

Strange that, isn't it.

OP certainly did use that term.

And speaking of ... buggered off ....

@CrymeaRvr

I’m more than happy being the ‘bad guy’ to my kids when I feel it’s needed, and. I parent should be on here bleating about being made to feel like the ‘bad guy’ when they feel they’re doing the right thing for their child. Our kids flippin hate on sometimes, but that’s parenting.

But you don't think safeguarding is needed when it comes to teen males sleeping in the same room as teen females. So you're not that keen on being the bad guy are you. Let the teens choose instead. Don't bother as a parent to protect them.

Cold hard facts about safeguarding is not bleating. The only bleating I can hear is from the sheep who follow the gender religion, with no critical thought or care whatsoever to how their demands would work in real life.

The only poster that I remember talking about 'bad guy' was in fact, ships.

Ahh. Has there been a name change I wonder 🤔

@MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor

The only poster that I remember talking about 'bad guy' was in fact, ships.

Ahh. Has there been a name change I wonder 🤔

mmmm? You know maybe some posters have a remarkably similar habits of using undermining, denigrating language, words that they use and posting styles.

Of course, MN frowns on sock puppeting so I am sure that we are not seeing anything like that here.

I mean, a poster who might sock puppet to make OP think that more people believe they are a 'bad guy' would not be in the spirit would it?

Particularly if no questions relating to how this policy would work in real life were being answered by a poster who had positioned themselves as declaring that not one girl has been harmed in the roll out of the same policy 'at their school' with out clarifying why that poster has that information.

And then another poster accuses OP for 'buggering off'.

So, I am sure that this is not happening Mr Blobby.

of buggering off. not for.

So, I am sure that this is not happening Mr Blobby.

I am sure you are right. I am certainly absolutely certain this is one million billion trillion percent not happening. Absolutely not. No way. Not a chance. Nope. #ThisNeverHappens

OP certainly did use that term.

OP certainly did NOT use that term.

Sorry. doing too many things at once.

I haven't buggered off. I am reading with interest, while dealing with the extremely unpleasant fallout of this situation for my family. This isn't a theoretical argument for us. (Plus two of us have tested positive for Covid, which is another layer of fun to add to the whole thing.)

@CrymeaRvr I think it was me who said I'm not happy about dh and I having to be the 'bad guy'. I have to say, before this, I would also have said that I'm prepared to be unpopular with my kids and say no to things they want. I've done it often enough. However, they haven't usually had a school/local authority policy to back them up, nor have they felt able to threaten to report me to the police for hate speech for not going along with what they want. A threat which doesn't seem particularly hyperbolic given what's going on in Newport. The coercive pressure on us to go along with this is immense. The idea that a child would have any kind of free choice in this situation is absurd.

Jesus, that's chilling:

The coercive pressure on us to go along with this is immense. The idea that a child would have any kind of free choice in this situation is absurd.

It is coercive. It is pressurising.

Didn't a lot of people make a lot of fuss about coercive/pressured decision-making about sex?

Who can actually stand up and say, "Women and girls should be coerced into reducing their boundaries"? And still think they're the good guys??

Evidently, I don't think we are the bad guy. I'm furious that the LEA/school have allowed themselves into a situation where they're unable to say no to anything a trans child says they want, and we're left having to be 'the bad guy' by pointing out the potential risks of this approach (or 'bleating' if you prefer) @CrymeaRvr Do you really feel proud of dismissing and belittling our concerns for the safety and well being of our child (AND their trans friend - there are plenty of scenarios here which could be a very bad outcome for them too)?

As has been pointed out many times, safeguarding is precisely about thinking about potential risks and how to mitigate them. You can dismiss that as 'disaster' thinking or 'random speculation' if it makes you feel more comfortable. But safeguarding is there to protect all children, even the ones whose parents would rather not think about what could go wrong.

Good luck OP. And covid makes this even more difficult to navigate.

Who can actually stand up and say, "Women and girls should be coerced into reducing their boundaries"? And still think they're the good guys??

Indeed. When I realised that there were people (including Governmental bodies) who were defending the inclusion of males (including convicted sex offenders) in the female prison estate and that the women in these prisons were being threatened with sanctions and punishment for protesting was when I realised the complete lack of empathy, sympathy or humanity towards women and girls as a sex class displayed by a depressingly large group of the population.

This is just yet another example. Girls being coerced by social pressure to 'be kind' is a real concern, to their own detriment. And if they're 'not kind', I'm sure they'll be pressured into it by the School's behaviour management for fears of being branded a bully, or a transphobe. We can't have feelings hurt, right?

@foodfiend and no, you're not the bad guy. You're a sensible parent trying to make sure that your child is kept safe from harm.

It surprises me that anyone who works in a school wishes to rely on the personal judgement of 14 year olds. The people I know who work in schools regularly deal with the repercussions of 14-16 year old who send nude photos to others, on the understanding the same-aged recipient will not share them.

Then the recipient breaks his/her promise and the image files fly around the school.