Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

740 replies

foodfiend · 24/01/2022 09:18

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

OP posts:
CrymeaRvr · 31/01/2022 10:37

‘ you're wrong. This isn't a difference in opinion -’

Quite literally a difference of opinion. You think one thing, I think the other = difference of opinion.

Whatwouldscullydo · 31/01/2022 10:41

Safguarding isn't nor should it ever be based on personal opinion.

Its based on reality which exists regardless of liking or or agreeing with it or thinking there are times it should let apply if u like the bloke

Whatwouldscullydo · 31/01/2022 10:41

Shouldn't apply

anothersmahedmug · 31/01/2022 10:46

I think opinion implies something for which there is ambiguity , where all facts may not be knowable , or for something personal

So you can have an opinion about the best way to tackle a problem. Or an opinion on what motivates another person

But being wrong is different. 1+1 makes 2 . Getting that wrong isn't a difference of opinion . It's a mistake

Waitwhat23 · 31/01/2022 10:46

'The earth is flat'. Difference in opinion or just an incorrect statement? In the face of evidence, someone can keep insisting that the earth is flat and that is their opinion but it doesn't make them less wrong.

There's a definite parallel there between flat earthers and those determined to erode women's and girls rights.

Helleofabore · 31/01/2022 10:47

I see that Cry has skipped answering the questions asked and doubled down on 'just make a special case in this instance, because [insert kind, nice, good friend, whatever calming nonsense suits].

Maybe they could take the time to answer the questions and assure us that there is some deep thinking behind what has become a mantra for safeguarding and sports.

aliasundercover · 31/01/2022 10:49

@CrymeaRvr

You don't seem like a stupid person. Instead of stubbornly standing your ground go back and read the posts about safeguarding. Actually read them. Understand what people are sharing with you.

There is nothing bad about being wrong, but it is ridiculous to refuse to change your mind once people have given you the information you need. Safeguarding is not about individual cases, it's about systems that protect the most vulnerable.

Helleofabore · 31/01/2022 10:50

Adding these questions again.

Readers can see the lack of thought that is coming from the posters who are supporting 14 year old males being accommodated with 14 year old females.

I can only put it down to lack of thought about the actualities of how this would work, because I don't want to think that those posters are aware of the harms and simply ignore them for the sake of being 'kind' and being 'tolerant'.

  1. How has this male child has changed so that for safeguarding purposes they are no longer to be treated as male?

2 What studies and statistics are there to prove that these transitioned males are in anyway safer than other males?

3 How many female students are acceptable collateral damage in the name of this 'progress'? How many girls being harmed is acceptable collateral for this supposedly progressive approach? Please give us a number? 1, 2, 10, 25, 1000?

  1. What does a 14 year old girl do in a situation where they get to the room and discover that they are actually NOT ok with the arrangement anymore, but because a group of teachers and parents have decided that it is 'kind' and 'nice' that they have agreed to share a space with a male, that 14 year old girl feels they cannot change their mind?
  1. Where does a 14 year old girl go if the worst scenario does happen (and we hope that it doesn't ever happen) and they feel that they have to 'live' with their decision and stay in the same room as their abuser. Because, they agreed to this arrangement?
  1. How does ships know that no girl has yet been harmed? How many girls live in a world where their abuse takes a while, sometimes years, to process? Or is ships relying on the new style of activist thought of ‘It doesn’t happen. If it did happen, it was just the once’ and not on the historical evidence that even males supposedly deemed ‘100% safe’ do commit sexual abuse? Including loving and caring ‘friends’ and teenagers.
  1. Who exactly benefits from lowering the boundaries that protect all females, but particularly children? Who? The women and children involved? Or the person who wishes access to the spaces that the safeguards are there to protect? Or the people who wish to see those boundaries eroded for other reasons that are harmful for those with lowered boundaries?

What benefit is there to those two female students to believe that in every single instance, that male is now exactly the same as them? What benefit is there to those two female students to believe that the sex of the person never matters?

  1. 'On a case by case scenario, how exactly does a safeguarding lead ascertain the sexual function of a 14 year old male without asking very private information that should not have to be asked or disclosed? How is this NOT transphobic to subject this male to this treatment when a blanket policy removes any of this requirement?'

Any takers?

SkegnessShogun · 31/01/2022 10:57

Am I understanding this correctly? boundaries are in place to try to prevent sex/ sexual abuse/ allegations of sexual abuse, happening between school children. And there are posters here who think those boundaries should be removed?

CrymeaRvr · 31/01/2022 10:58

‘ I see that Cry has skipped answering the questions asked ’

I generally don’t engage in being asked ‘questions’ by those who I suspect wouldn’t listen to the answers anyway. Wasted everyone’s time.
I have my opinion, others have theirs.
In these circumstances I would be happy to have my DD share a room with a trans girl. Others see it as the first step in the road to hell.
I’ve read most of the thread, my opinions haven’t changed.

CrymeaRvr · 31/01/2022 10:59

Not to mention I just don’t have the time to run point by bloody point down the list
of ‘questions’ or read giant posts today.

anothersmahedmug · 31/01/2022 10:59

You would be happy

Many parents would not

You won't answer the questions because you can't

CrymeaRvr · 31/01/2022 11:00

Although I’m sure someone will pop along in a no to tell me that they can’t believe I’m too lazy to spend time saving the nations children…

CrymeaRvr · 31/01/2022 11:01

‘ You won't answer the questions because you can't’

Mate - literally, and I mean literally,
Haven’t read them.

Whatwouldscullydo · 31/01/2022 11:02

Actually we'd ve very interested in the answers. Like what would the difference be between that and your dd sharing with her boyfriend.

If I told you I wouldn't steal your car would you give me your keys.

I won't steal your money if you give me your card and PIN.

If you'd decline on that why would you believe the word of someone else who jas the potential to get your dd pregnant

NecessaryScene · 31/01/2022 11:03

I generally don’t engage in being asked ‘questions’ by those who I suspect wouldn’t listen to the answers anyway. Wasted everyone’s time. I have my opinion, others have theirs.

This is a discussion board. If you don't want to discuss things, there's not a lot of point being here.

We spend a lot of time discussing stuff in part because we're trying to convince lurkers of the soundness of our position. And we believe our position is sound enough we can do that. (And another part is to make sure we've worked through what we believe - that it stands up to debate).

Don't you want to do that? We know the people we're discussing with often don't listen to our answers, but we know the lurkers do.

Come on, do it for the lurkers. Or do you not believe that your arguments would convince them?

UltraVividLament · 31/01/2022 11:05

@CrymeaRvr You've posted 4 times. You could have read the questions and answered 3 of them, surely.

It is odd to claim firm opinions, and then refuse to back them up with answers to obvious questions because you claim people won't listen to you or aren't asking in good faith.

Your use of hyperbole is telling. People don't see this as the first step on the road to hell. They see an obvious safeguarding fail, and are asking the obvious questions.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 31/01/2022 11:06

@CrymeaRvr

‘ you're wrong. This isn't a difference in opinion -’

Quite literally a difference of opinion. You think one thing, I think the other = difference of opinion.

It really isn't.

Do you know what safeguarding means?

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 31/01/2022 11:07

@CrymeaRvr

‘ I see that Cry has skipped answering the questions asked ’

I generally don’t engage in being asked ‘questions’ by those who I suspect wouldn’t listen to the answers anyway. Wasted everyone’s time.
I have my opinion, others have theirs.
In these circumstances I would be happy to have my DD share a room with a trans girl. Others see it as the first step in the road to hell.
I’ve read most of the thread, my opinions haven’t changed.

Would you be happy for your teen DD (if you have one) to share with the boys?
tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 31/01/2022 11:07

@Helleofabore

Adding these questions again.

Readers can see the lack of thought that is coming from the posters who are supporting 14 year old males being accommodated with 14 year old females.

I can only put it down to lack of thought about the actualities of how this would work, because I don't want to think that those posters are aware of the harms and simply ignore them for the sake of being 'kind' and being 'tolerant'.

  1. How has this male child has changed so that for safeguarding purposes they are no longer to be treated as male?

2 What studies and statistics are there to prove that these transitioned males are in anyway safer than other males?

3 How many female students are acceptable collateral damage in the name of this 'progress'? How many girls being harmed is acceptable collateral for this supposedly progressive approach? Please give us a number? 1, 2, 10, 25, 1000?

  1. What does a 14 year old girl do in a situation where they get to the room and discover that they are actually NOT ok with the arrangement anymore, but because a group of teachers and parents have decided that it is 'kind' and 'nice' that they have agreed to share a space with a male, that 14 year old girl feels they cannot change their mind?
  1. Where does a 14 year old girl go if the worst scenario does happen (and we hope that it doesn't ever happen) and they feel that they have to 'live' with their decision and stay in the same room as their abuser. Because, they agreed to this arrangement?
  1. How does ships know that no girl has yet been harmed? How many girls live in a world where their abuse takes a while, sometimes years, to process? Or is ships relying on the new style of activist thought of ‘It doesn’t happen. If it did happen, it was just the once’ and not on the historical evidence that even males supposedly deemed ‘100% safe’ do commit sexual abuse? Including loving and caring ‘friends’ and teenagers.
  1. Who exactly benefits from lowering the boundaries that protect all females, but particularly children? Who? The women and children involved? Or the person who wishes access to the spaces that the safeguards are there to protect? Or the people who wish to see those boundaries eroded for other reasons that are harmful for those with lowered boundaries?

What benefit is there to those two female students to believe that in every single instance, that male is now exactly the same as them? What benefit is there to those two female students to believe that the sex of the person never matters?

  1. 'On a case by case scenario, how exactly does a safeguarding lead ascertain the sexual function of a 14 year old male without asking very private information that should not have to be asked or disclosed? How is this NOT transphobic to subject this male to this treatment when a blanket policy removes any of this requirement?'

Any takers?

Patience of a saint, you have Grin
anothersmahedmug · 31/01/2022 11:08

Ah

You are happy

No discussion

That's nice

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 31/01/2022 11:09

@CrymeaRvr

Not to mention I just don’t have the time to run point by bloody point down the list of ‘questions’ or read giant posts today.
Tbf, understanding and implementing safeguarding does require a bit of reading.

I see a pattern.

Helleofabore · 31/01/2022 11:09

That is quite ok Cry, that says all that needs to be said. And those reading along can see your lack of engagement beyond doubling down on 'case by case' and now continuing to demonise anyone who doesn't agree with you as

Others see it as the first step in the road to hell.

Another classic trans activist tactic. Like saying phrases like 'moral panic'.

But every time you post, another safeguarding expert will come along and tell you that you are wrong. And they will also clarify that safeguarding should NEVER be about opinions, they should be based on facts and whether another safeguarding lead would make the exact same decision with the same facts.

Waitwhat23 · 31/01/2022 11:10

@SkegnessShogun

Am I understanding this correctly? boundaries are in place to try to prevent sex/ sexual abuse/ allegations of sexual abuse, happening between school children. And there are posters here who think those boundaries should be removed?
Yep.

Despite safeguarding being unequivocal and applied to everyone across the board, some people think it should be on a 'case by case' basis.

I mean, if safeguarding should be on a 'case by case' basis, why not drop CBS and PVG checks for those working in Schools? My pal is a really nice bloke, I can vouch for him, honest!

CrymeaRvr · 31/01/2022 11:12

‘ Would you be happy for your teen DD (if you have one) to share with the boys?’

If my teen DD was a trans boy, and wanted to share with 2 close males friends,
And all 3 were genuinely fine about it and their parents were so fine about it then the answer is yes. Hence the whole case by case thing.

If my DD was somehow asked to go in a dorm of 10 boys from school - that would be a no, even if she wanted to.