School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

What's the difference between the 10 boys and her 2 friends.

Statistically risk.is higher. Its usually someone you know and trust who assaults you

I would have thought a safeguarding expert as cry has positioned themselves would already HAVE the answers to the questions.

That is entire point cry. You keep giving opinions like you the safeguarding expert. But you cannot answer what actually should have been basic questions for forming any safeguarding decision about this situation.

That you can't be bovvered tells readers everything they need to know.

That is entire point cry. You keep giving opinions like you the safeguarding expert. But you cannot answer what actually should have been basic questions for forming any safeguarding decision about this situation.

Which basically rules you out of any policy-making. Sure, you can vote that you "approve", democratically, but if you can't articulate your reasoning, then your further input to the process is worthless.

Your simple vote counts no more or less than anyone else's.

If my teen DD was a trans boy, and wanted to share with 2 close males friends

You are entrenched.

My teen has quite a number of trans boys as friends. NOT ONE of them should be sharing a room with boys at 14. And not one of their parents would ever think that was appropriate either.

You either actually don't know any trans boys' or you have a very idealistic approach to life.

See case by case to me means no girls sharing with boys , not every time they want to share having a bit of a think

Keeps it simple
Avoids using having to use fallible human judgement
Based on fact not fantasy

If my DD was somehow asked to go in a dorm of 10 boys from school - that would be a no, even if she wanted to.

Um, speaking as a former boy, I'd fancy my chances of shagging her a lot higher if I was her friend and got to be alone with her with another male friend than in a dorm with 10 boys.

Not sure you've thought this through properly.

Personally I can't understand why we ever needed to segregate children according to their identity. I went on some school trips and I can tell you that other than our physical bodies I had nothing in common with some of the children I shared with - no common identity. It baffles me as to why people think such segregation is needed tbh. If, however, society is deciding that in our brave new world such categorisation is important I am going to need some definitions so that I can choose which box I best fit into. I think it's likely to be a male stereotype which is confusing as I am a female and I am not trans - or at least I don't think I am and I'm not sure how it advances society for me to start saying that I am.

@CrymeaRvr

‘ Would you be happy for your teen DD (if you have one) to share with the boys?’

If my teen DD was a trans boy, and wanted to share with 2 close males friends,
And all 3 were genuinely fine about it and their parents were so fine about it then the answer is yes. Hence the whole case by case thing.

If my DD was somehow asked to go in a dorm of 10 boys from school - that would be a no, even if she wanted to.

Why would you say no to your daughter sharing with the boys? Or is there a difference in number? Eg, sharing with one boy is ok, but not ten boys?

@CrymeaRvr

‘ Would you be happy for your teen DD (if you have one) to share with the boys?’

If my teen DD was a trans boy, and wanted to share with 2 close males friends,
And all 3 were genuinely fine about it and their parents were so fine about it then the answer is yes. Hence the whole case by case thing.

If my DD was somehow asked to go in a dorm of 10 boys from school - that would be a no, even if she wanted to.

You seem to be implying that if your DD did not identify as a trans boy and wanted to share a room with her 2 close male friends, that would not be OK.

Such bonkers thinking. It's the same child. No difference except some nebulous notion of identity.

Speak to Safeschoolsalliance to get advice on how to approach the school. Then speak to the school and say either your DD is in a single sex bedroom or she doesn't go.

Tell DD that while A may identify as female gender, A is not transsexual and A still has a male body and still wakes up every morning with an erect penis. Tell her it simply isn't appropriate for teenage girls to be sleeping in a bed a few feet away from someone who's lying in bed with an erection.

As to calling you transphobic, I would go ballistic if my teen tried to police my language like that. Personally as a punishment I would set her an essay to research and write on the number of sexual assaults of females by transwomen in previously female-only spaces, for example toilets and prison. If she doesn't complete the essay she doesn't go on the school trip.

Such bonkers thinking. It's the same child. No difference except some nebulous notion of identity

Kids are meant to be able to say they are all good with this stuff . They are supposed to be safe in the knowledge that the adults around them will step in and keep them safe. Being a teen was always about rebelling and keeping up with everything and everyone . It's part of learning vital lessons. Like people who male you jump through these hoops aren't worth it.

But that comes in time. And we are supoosed to be our kids get out if jail free card. We are supoosed to be thr ones who say no so they kidd cab kick.off we didn't say yes.

We aren't supoosed to offer them up on a silver platter. They aren't vehicles fir our own social validation

Kids are meant to be able to say they are all good with this stuff . They are supposed to be safe in the knowledge that the adults around them will step in and keep them safe.

Yes. And now the adults are failing them massively.
Who ever thought there would come a time when teachers decided they could ignore safeguarding and let the boys shack up with the girls on a residential trip.

And before anyone says this transgirl is not a boy

1. they were born a boy 2)they have a male body
2. they do not have a GRC Thus both physically and legally, they are a boy.

If my teen DD was a trans boy, and wanted to share with 2 close males friends,
And all 3 were genuinely fine about it and their parents were so fine about it then the answer is yes. Hence the whole case by case thing.

Again. Have you actually met any teenaged 'trans boys'? If so, please tell me about what you have noticed about the state of their mental health.

Maybe you can answer THAT question.

The trans boys I know have incredibly precarious mental health issues. Being accommodated with boys, even if they were friends, leaves them open to all sorts of situations that would be detrimental to their precarious mental health. Please tell us which parent would actually think this is a good solution.

You keep on talking about this as some wonderful fantasy.

We will fucking deal with the realities of this in our every day lives.

But, do keep on demonising parents, teachers and safeguarding leads who probably have more experience with these situations than you do. It obviously helps you to feel like you are morally superior.

The trans identified kids I know of need more safeguarding, not less. Most especially the ones whose parents either barely notice them or are wholly affirmative and seem to be having a personal need fulfilled by the increased attention on their family.

What a loss for the safety of women and children that safeguarding is now taken personally and viewed as being offensive. How incredibly individualistic too.

Schools have such a tough job as it is without parents not wanting to seem like the ‘bad guy’ about decision they make for their children.
The school have said they manage on a case by case basis and involve the parents.

The point is, that when it comes to safeguarding, there should be no case by case basis and schools seem perfectly capable of doing this except when it comes to this particular issue. It is lawful to exclude males from areas where female students may be in a state of undress or asleep and this is why schools are able to organise mixed sex trips. If this were not the case, I can assure you that no child would ever be taken away on a trip.

@CrymeaRvr

‘ You won't answer the questions because you can't’

Mate - literally, and I mean literally,
Haven’t read them.

Then how do you know you're right, if you're not reading other people's posts? Why should I believe that you have answers for these questions?

Here they are again.

Readers can see the lack of thought that is coming from the posters who are supporting 14 year old males being accommodated with 14 year old females.

I can only put it down to lack of thought about the actualities of how this would work, because I don't want to think that those posters are aware of the harms and simply ignore them for the sake of being 'kind' and being 'tolerant'.

1. How has this male child has changed so that for safeguarding purposes they are no longer to be treated as male?

2 What studies and statistics are there to prove that these transitioned males are in anyway safer than other males?

3 How many female students are acceptable collateral damage in the name of this 'progress'? How many girls being harmed is acceptable collateral for this supposedly progressive approach? Please give us a number? 1, 2, 10, 25, 1000?

1. What does a 14 year old girl do in a situation where they get to the room and discover that they are actually NOT ok with the arrangement anymore, but because a group of teachers and parents have decided that it is 'kind' and 'nice' that they have agreed to share a space with a male, that 14 year old girl feels they cannot change their mind?

1. Where does a 14 year old girl go if the worst scenario does happen (and we hope that it doesn't ever happen) and they feel that they have to 'live' with their decision and stay in the same room as their abuser. Because, they agreed to this arrangement?

1. How does ships know that no girl has yet been harmed? How many girls live in a world where their abuse takes a while, sometimes years, to process? Or is ships relying on the new style of activist thought of ‘It doesn’t happen. If it did happen, it was just the once’ and not on the historical evidence that even males supposedly deemed ‘100% safe’ do commit sexual abuse? Including loving and caring ‘friends’ and teenagers.

1. Who exactly benefits from lowering the boundaries that protect all females, but particularly children? Who? The women and children involved? Or the person who wishes access to the spaces that the safeguards are there to protect? Or the people who wish to see those boundaries eroded for other reasons that are harmful for those with lowered boundaries?

What benefit is there to those two female students to believe that in every single instance, that male is now exactly the same as them? What benefit is there to those two female students to believe that the sex of the person never matters?

1. 'On a case by case scenario, how exactly does a safeguarding lead ascertain the sexual function of a 14 year old male without asking very private information that should not have to be asked or disclosed? How is this NOT transphobic to subject this male to this treatment when a blanket policy removes any of this requirement?'

Well regardless of what name the poster posts under, they seem to have admitted that they will definitely not be even reading the questions. So entrenched in their belief that nothing at all can go wrong here.

I would still like to know if they have anything to do with the 'school' they said has adopted this policy as I now cannot believe they are a teacher with any responsibility in safeguarding.

And it is very apparent that they should never have anything to do with safeguarding as they are simple not prepared to answer the difficult questions about a real life situation.

Case by case would open the school up to endless discrimination claims. Why is that child allowed to share a room when child B isn’t? Teachers will know certain kids and their history/background. How will teachers impose safeguarding without disclosing confidential information about a child. Safeguarding cannot be done on case by case - it has to apply to all. Otherwise personal preferences will come into play. I like that child but not that child.

'Case by case' was supposed to refer to different situations, not individuals. I'm inclined to think that if a service is single sex now its most probably legal. It would have been challenged before now if it wasn't.

@Thelnebriati

'Case by case' was supposed to refer to different situations, not individuals. I'm inclined to think that if a service is single sex now its most probably legal. It would have been challenged before now if it wasn't.

Quite. If a situation has been judged to need to be single sex then it should be single sex. If it a transfer identified individual of the opposite sex is OK to enter then that shows there is no need for it to be single sex and it should be mixed sex.

Arghh my phone and it's autocorrect! Trans not transfer

I must thank Cry for taking up the TRA baton of posting vacuous nonsense and ignoring questions, in order to instruct lurkers on what this ludicrous ideology is really based on - a big fat nothing.

‘ But, do keep on demonising parents, teachers and safeguarding leads ’

Er, what now?? Point me to any comment I’ve me made that demonises anyone? Pretty sure I’ve said that the parents have power of veto, which they’ve rightly used as they weren’t happen with the suggested plans. That schools should judge case by case. And I’m not sure I mentioned ‘safeguarding leads’ at all.
Like I said, I have a difference of opinion to some in here as I think the school going case by case is sensible. But OP isn’t happy, fair enough, so in this case her DD won’t be sharing with the trans friend. Absolutely their right to say so. Not what I would have decided in the same circs but not my decision.

I’m more than happy being the ‘bad guy’ to my kids when I feel it’s needed, and. I parent should be on here bleating about being made to feel like the ‘bad guy’ when they feel they’re doing the right thing for their child. Our kids flippin hate on sometimes, but that’s parenting.

You are implying that parents who disagree with you see it as the road to hell.

Others see it as the first step in the road to hell.

And that is just one.

I could point to another poster who also posted quite surprisingly similar posts with similar language and the terms that they used too.