School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

The coercive pressure on us to go along with this is immense.

And I imagine if it is so immense for a parent, that a 14 year old girl is absolutely not ever going to let on that they have concerns. That related to some of the questions that some posters have decided are so irrelevant to their kind of safeguarding that they won't even bother reading them.

Point me to any comment I’ve me made that demonises anyone?

I have been thinking about this further.

I wonder if there are posters who are so entrenched in their prejudice against people who don't agree that a sub group of people should get special treatment in safeguarding decisions that they simply cannot see the denigration and derrogation in their posts? That some posters have been so often fed the line that they are the righteous and on the right side of history and those disagreeing are ignorant and hateful that they actually believe that.

So, they never even pick up the snark, the undermining and that denigration in their interactions with people. They cannot even see it.

It is rather like projecting that 'others' are not willing to discuss things, despite asking many questions, so therefore why bother to even read questions posted that are hugely relevant to the thread.

Quite. It's rather like the ranting about "I hate haters" and "can't we all just love everyone (except them over there who I disagree with.)"

It just keeps reminding me of Dickens, 200 years ago, lampooning people with muddled values in examples like Oliver Twist. Children being starved and beaten in a room with LOVE written on the walls.

‘ It just keeps reminding me of Dickens, 200 years ago, lampooning people with muddled values in examples like Oliver Twist. Children being starved and beaten in a room with LOVE written on the walls.’

This thread is starting to get properly nutty.

@CrymeaRvr

‘ It just keeps reminding me of Dickens, 200 years ago, lampooning people with muddled values in examples like Oliver Twist. Children being starved and beaten in a room with LOVE written on the walls.’

This thread is starting to get properly nutty.

Do go on?

How is an example of conflicted thought - it is ok to believe in one thing while doing another in obvious hypocrisy - 'nutty'?

It just keeps reminding me of Dickens, 200 years ago, lampooning people with muddled values in examples like Oliver Twist.

Oh, hadn't really thought of that. Yes, Dickens really loved skewering Victorian moralisers, all wrapped up in their own worldview. It does have very similar feel, doesn't it?

@foodfiend, apologies if it's got lost in the noise, but I haven't seen whether you've challenged the school on this and if so what their response has been?

The school has effectively organised a mixed-sex sleepover for 14 year-olds. Anybody who claims to not see any possible problems with that arrangement is either lying or has spent their entire life living under a stone.

I'm baffled as to how there's even 600+ messages-worth of discussion about this, but I'd love to hear how the school are defending it (and also how their insurance providers feel about that).

This thread is starting to get properly nutty.

You posted that you weren't answering questions on the practicalities because you hadn't read them, and yet we are to trust your assurances that you have good answers.

Now that's "nutty".

(and also how their insurance providers feel about that)

This is what surprises me thr most. That between that , parents not being aware so not making informed decisions/consent, and any outside agency having written themselves out the responsibility grom the start, when something happens the school is going to be on its own covering the financial costs

But I guess that's another strange anomaly. Whilst parents have to frequently hey their own.cakes back at a bake sale amd donate toilet roll and scissors or whatever there is always miraculously money to convert toilets to " gender neutral " amd to provide a sue fund

‘ Whilst parents have to frequently hey their own.cakes back at a bake sale amd donate toilet roll and scissors or whatever there is always miraculously money to convert toilets to " gender neutral " amd to provide a sue fund ‘

Trans kids are now why school funds are being decimated? I was pretty sure that was the Tories.

Well hundreds of FOI requests to multiple organisations including schools and councils etc revealed thousands being paid to stonewall.

Given the debt in finding these days you cannot deny that paying lobby groups for inaccurate legal advice and building facilities on the basis of said advuse is hardly a sensible use if funds

paying lobby groups for inaccurate legal advice and building facilities on the basis of said advuse is hardly a sensible use if funds

This is true. And it is why so many organisations are pulling out of supporting Stonewall. Their advice seems rather unreliable. But I guess we need to wait for the EHRC to confirm about single sex facilities and how the EA2010 is being interpreted at the moment. Hopefully not too much longer before they release their advice on this.

@CrymeaRvr

‘ Whilst parents have to frequently hey their own.cakes back at a bake sale amd donate toilet roll and scissors or whatever there is always miraculously money to convert toilets to " gender neutral " amd to provide a sue fund ‘

Trans kids are now why school funds are being decimated? I was pretty sure that was the Tories.

Imagine that there is a rule that if a baby is conceived by a pupil on a school trip, the most senior member of staff has to pay all medical costs of the girl, and all financial costs of of bringing the baby up, from birth until 18. Including childcare costs, after-school activities, their school trip costs in secondary school and so on.

You are the chief executive of a chain of 50 academies, each comprising 2000 students, and accordinglyyouare the most senior member of staff for all these schools. Sleeping arrangements on school trips at all these schools is decided on a case-by-case basis, butyouwill bear the financial consequences if any member of staff (most of whom you have not met) at an individual school misjudges the situation, and a teenager gets another teenager pregnant.

Are you happy with a case-by-case policy when every individual error by a complete stranger could cost youhundreds of thousands of pounds?

Thanks @LarissaFeodorovna It's a bit buried in the thread, but the current situation is that the school say they are following the guidance from the LEA safeguarding lead, and have forwarded the LEA's 'trans inclusion toolkit'. The section on residential trips simply says 'trans pupils and students should be able to sleep in dorms appropriate to their gender identity' Unless they don't want to, in which case other arrangements can be made.

It does not acknowledge the existence of any other children, or parents. If the school were really following this guidance, we probably wouldn't even have been informed. So, they do know it's not right.

I have asked:

• Can you send me the actual safeguarding policy, as this clearly isn't it? (Only mentions safeguarding to say that there are no additional safeguarding issues raised in relation to trans children.)
• Can you tell me what risk assessments have been carried out in relation to this document/approach?
• Does the school's insurance policy cover mixed-sex sleeping arrangements on school trips?

I haven't yet had a reply.

The toolkit is clearly based on the same template as the one which was withdrawn in Oxfordshire following a legal challenge, and has since been withdrawn by multiple other authorities.

I haven't (yet) pointed this out, but that will be my next step if I haven't had a response by tomorrow. They've had the best part of a week.

I do encourage anyone who's uncomfortable about this scenario to contact their dds school and find out what their policy is now. Don't wait until you or your child are put in as uncomfortable a situation as we are in.

As someone (I think @Helleofabore ) showed clearly upthread, it's about balancing an extremely long list of hopefully unlikely but serious potential harms to children (including trans children) against the harm of a trans child being told that sleeping arrangements are arranged by sex not gender, and their experiencing distress as a result.

Safe Schools Alliance have information and a template letter: safeschoolsallianceuk.net/get-involved/lea-schools-trans-guidance/ This includes links to the 'letter before action' used in the Oxfordshire legal action, and laying out the ways in which the toolkit misrepresents equality law.

The toolkit is clearly based on the same template as the one which was withdrawn in Oxfordshire following a legal challenge, and has since been withdrawn by multiple other authorities.

I was in contact with our safeguarding office for my LEA (it is shared with neighbouring boroughs) and let them know it was withdrawn and to not use it and mentioned the court case that WAS active before the withdrawal. It took some reminding, but in the end they sent out communication to all the local schools not to use it.

It seems that the school's governors will be quite interested in hearing from you OP if they have not been following the fact that the guidance being used is no longer current.

Perhaps the school that pp mentioned 'was using it with no harm' is also completely unaware that it was withdrawn soon after publication too.

If I remember, when I contacted the LEA office they did not even know it was withdrawn. They went and confirmed it. It seems the CPS was not very communicative about that withdrawal.

Well done foodfiend. You have the support of the vast majority of parents who expect the safety and right to privacy of girls (and boys) to be prioritised over the demands of self interested adults insisting on unwilling children being forced to undress / shower / sleep in front of those with no respect for boundaries. (there's a quicker way of saying it but it will likely get deleted given the interest some have in these discussions about children)

Would be worth asking for the equality impact assessment too!

They are usually eaten by the dog ir something but ya might get lucky

@Goatsaregreat

Well done foodfiend. You have the support of the vast majority of parents who expect the safety and right to privacy of girls (and boys) to be prioritised over the demands of self interested adults insisting on unwilling children being forced to undress / shower / sleep in front of those with no respect for boundaries. (there's a quicker way of saying it but it will likely get deleted given the interest some have in these discussions about children)

Yes, thanks for the update, foodfiend. I look forward to hearing the school's response.

The amount of obfuscation on this thread is baffling - how many parents would be willing to host a mixed-sex sleepover of other people's 14yo children without taking steps to ensure that boys and girls were accommodated separately? And presumably you would also make very sure that all the parents were aware of and happy with the arrangements? The potential fall-out in a friendship group if there was a pregnancy and/or sexual incident at an inadequately-supervised sleepover in a private house really doesn't bear thinking about.

And how many parents would let their own 14yo attend a mixed-sex sleepover at a friend's house (bearing in mind you don't generally know secondary school friends or their parents that well) without making any enquiries as to the planned sleeping arrangements?

I'll bet vanishingly few parents of teens would not make any attempts to ensure that their own children and their friends were being accommodated appropriately at a house party or sleepover. Yet put trans into the equation and suddenly everybody loses their collective minds.

If anyone is in any doubts as to what can happen when nice, well-brought-up teenagers are inadequately supervised, the many appalling stories that surfaced earlier in 2021 via the website Everyone's Invited might help concentrate your minds.

www.standard.co.uk/comment/everyones-invited-school-sex-education-rape-culture-b924897.html

And how many parents would let their own 14yo attend a mixed-sex sleepover at a friend's house

There does seem to be a few 'cool' parents on this thread.

@NecessaryScene

I wonder if the school is allowing other mixed sex groups to share a room? If not why not?

If the policy is that only "trans" males get to do this, what heterosexual teenage boy wouldn't be tempted to claim to be "trans" if it meant they got to sleep with teenage girls on trips?

That would be discrimination on the basis of gender identity . Of course that’s not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act - it’s gender reassignment and as this is a child they can’t have legally changed gender.

So they are legally and biologically male. They can’t let this child share a room with girls because he has one type of gender identity and then refuse that right to another boy with a different gender identity.

So they would need to let any other children of different sexes share a room on a school trip if they wanted to eg a boyfriend and girlfriend.

However I’m sure the school must have done a detailed risk assessment which they will no doubt be happy to share with you @foodfiend. No one would overturn decades of good practice on school and other residential events without having looked into it very carefully and had proper legal advice.

And of course informed their insurers, given the complex risks involved.

I think there should be an opt-in for this. It would solve everyone’s problems.

Parents could tick the box “yes, I am happy for my DD to share a bedroom with a person with a penis on school trips”. And then, given that opt-in, the school could do the case by case assessment. Maybe penis people who always feels like girls could share a bedroom with girls. Maybe some schools would include penis people who felt like girls on Thursdays and Fridays - if the trip was Thu-Fri.

And there would be no pressure on any other parents and no issue with parents who didn’t speak English very well.

The section on residential trips simply says 'trans pupils and students should be able to sleep in dorms appropriate to their gender identity' Unless they don't want to, in which case other arrangements can be made.

This helps though. Dorms are sex segregated so the appropriate form for a biological male is the boys. There is no evidence of greater homogeneity of gender identity between this boy and girls than this boy and other boys and there can't be until someone defines it

And there would be no pressure on any other parents and no issue with parents who didn’t speak English very well

And the teachers ?

It was made clear on a residential trip dd1 took that male staff would not enter rooms occupied by the girls unless there was an emergency.

Are you going to force a male teacher to search/enter a room with girls. Or put a female teacher in the position of having to supervise a male in the room.