Dad taking daughters into the ladies or disabled toilets

[MattDillonsEyebrows]

If a dad was on his own with two daughters ages 4 & 5, would you have an issue with him going into the ladies toilets with them? He says he would call out, that he is a man, and coming in with his daughters and would stay in a cubicle, and also call out when leaving the cubicle. But obviously he would need to use the sinks to wash hands.

Or would you suggest he uses the disabled toilets instead?

The reason he doesn't want to use the mens, is a) them having to walk past urinals and strange men peeing, and b) due to the all too common state of men's toilets in general and even the sit down toilet usually has pee all over the seat and is generally disgusting and he doesn't want to subject his daughters to this.

I personally wouldn't have an issue with this because I agree with his reasons for not wanting to take his daughters in there, but obviously his presence would more than likely make some women feel uncomfortable which he would not want to do.

Disabled toilet is obviously another option, but having seen some of the disabled toilet threads on here, that would also cause an issue if a disabled person was waiting. Obviously a child, is unlikely to be able to wait.

Please nobody retort with 'well the fact that men's toilet's are filthy isn't the women's problem' or similar as, whilst I agree with this sentiment, unfortunately they do tend to be gross and changing that would take huge societal change which let's face it, is not likely to happen soon.

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

For the people who think its ok... If a father was to take his young daughter to a swimming pool with open plan single sex changing rooms, which changing room should they use?

The men's of course. However pools that have nothing but open changing are rare enough that I've never been to one in all the pools I've ever visited in my life, which is a lot, therefore avoiding that one and going to one with a family change or cubicle option would be a sensible choice.

@KurtWilde

I'd have absolutely no problem with this. Better that than he send them in alone or take them into the gents.

One of my neighbours who's a single dad to a 3yo daughter, actually asked me this question a short while ago and I gave him the answer above.

So far no one has had an issue, in fact he mentioned he's had a few positive comments from women saying what a lovely dad to take her in.

I hope you've read some different perspectives on this thread and adjusted your advice to this man now. It won't be long before it really upsets someone and he's confronted. Better to avoid that.

@camperqueen54

Many toilets are switching to gender neutral now anyway so it won't be a problem soon. I wouldn't use the disabled loo though.

Gender neutral merely excludes a different group of people: females who cannot use mixed sex spaces. Many schools and workplaces who went for gender neutral in a wave of progressive enthusiasm have then had to shift back to an more sensible and actually inclusive model of some gender neutral and female only/male only. However this does require teaching everyone at the same time to respect other people's needs and not think only of yourself.

Likewise the posters who are delighted to share gender neutral spaces and live surrounded by other females delighted to use gender neutral spaces. By all means, enjoy your use of gender neutral mixed sex spaces, no one wants to stop you. But removing female only accessible spaces from females who cannot access them as you can is not exactly kind, inclusive or thoughtful. There are answers that work for everyone.

in fact he mentioned he's had a few positive comments from women saying what a lovely dad to take her in.

Are female people seriously going to virtue signal about being super lovely to male people who turn a non consenting female only space into mixed sex, because it supposedly shows their wonderful progressiveness?

If mixed sex was super lovely and progressive this father would not hesitate to take his daughters into the male facilities.

No. An adult male cannot enter the ladies. Just no

I am a father of daughters. When they were young this problem did not arise for me because we lived in a place where public lavatories were differently organised than currently they are in UK.

However, I did have decisions to make more recently when I had the good fortune to be involved with care of granddaughters here. (Moved back to UK, some children did likewise; interesting comparisons with more internationally-based children but I will not expatiate.)

I never would have felt easy going into the Ladies. So I never did. First choice was always a 'baby change' facility, something I had got used to when the children/grandchildren had been in nappies. If no baby change place, next choice was disabled/accessible toilets; in the many, many times I did this I never once felt I had discommoded anyone who needed to use the facility because of disablement. Lucky, I suppose, but, well, my grandchildren came first, anyway.

Of course, even in towns/cities, facilities are not always available. I changed nappies and, later, helped little girls pee, in some, erh, interesting places. If neither baby changing room nor disabled toilet were available, a cubicle in the Gents would serve. And, of course, sometimes when even that was not available, holding a little girl over a patch of grass or even a road grid in emergency situations might be necessary: needs must!

Now all my grandchildren can go alone while I wait outside. Or, more often, I have to say, when we spend time together out-of-doors, they willingly wait outside when I am caught short, which happens more and more often as I grow more and more physically decrepit. (Patches of grass/drains? -- I draw a veil.)

All part of life's richness. But tldr it does seem to me women have the right to veto men going in the Ladies; even if some women think it OK, I know some do not, and that is enough for me (and should be enough for other men too).

[How to deal with a small child needing to pee/a change of nappy, when said child is terrified of the noise of hand-driers? -- That is a whole other can of worms with which I am sure some of you are familiar. ... Like most things in life, it passes, I can report, however stressful it might seem at the time.]

A lot of the time the changing facilities are in the disable toilet so I would think this option as you would often have you take a toddler into disabled toilet to change them.

No men should not be entering the ladies toilets.

My DH took my DD to not a cubicle in the mens.

@9toenails

I am a father of daughters. When they were young this problem did not arise for me because we lived in a place where public lavatories were differently organised than currently they are in UK.

However, I did have decisions to make more recently when I had the good fortune to be involved with care of granddaughters here. (Moved back to UK, some children did likewise; interesting comparisons with more internationally-based children but I will not expatiate.)

I never would have felt easy going into the Ladies. So I never did. First choice was always a 'baby change' facility, something I had got used to when the children/grandchildren had been in nappies. If no baby change place, next choice was disabled/accessible toilets; in the many, many times I did this I never once felt I had discommoded anyone who needed to use the facility because of disablement. Lucky, I suppose, but, well, my grandchildren came first, anyway.

Of course, even in towns/cities, facilities are not always available. I changed nappies and, later, helped little girls pee, in some, erh, interesting places. If neither baby changing room nor disabled toilet were available, a cubicle in the Gents would serve. And, of course, sometimes when even that was not available, holding a little girl over a patch of grass or even a road grid in emergency situations might be necessary: needs must!

Now all my grandchildren can go alone while I wait outside. Or, more often, I have to say, when we spend time together out-of-doors, they willingly wait outside when I am caught short, which happens more and more often as I grow more and more physically decrepit. (Patches of grass/drains? -- I draw a veil.)

All part of life's richness. But tldr it does seem to me women have the right to veto men going in the Ladies; even if some women think it OK, I know some do not, and that is enough for me (and should be enough for other men too).

[How to deal with a small child needing to pee/a change of nappy, when said child is terrified of the noise of hand-driers? -- That is a whole other can of worms with which I am sure some of you are familiar. ... Like most things in life, it passes, I can report, however stressful it might seem at the time.]

So disabled people don't have the right to veto non disabled people from going into their only space?

Some disabled people don't have the privilege to choose. Why should they loose the right to access the only space they can use because of people that do have a choice and choose to be ablest? You said yourself you could access the other toilets with your child, you opted not to in preference of the disabled toilets. That choice negatively impacts disabled people. As you said there are many places that children and their parents can physically access. A disabled person might not be able to use an "interesting" place in an emergency, literally their only option is the disabled toilets.

Disabled people need the special adaptations in disabled toilets for many reasons.
They could soil themselves or pass out if they are forced to stand and wait.
They could need the space to manoeuvre a wheelchair, a walking frame, a crutch or an artificial limb.
They could need the space under the sink to be unobstructed so they can wash their hands.
They could need to use the grab rails to manoeuvre themselves onto the toilet.
They could need access to the emergency cord.
They could need a place to take their medication or someplace quiet and safe to access when they are about to have a meltdown or panic attack.
They could be unable to reach the lock, door handle, sink or hand dryers in other toilets.
They could not have the dexterity to use a typical bathroom lock or taps.
They could require the brail and other markers to know their way around if they are visually impaired.
They could require the special nonslip flooring in the disabled toilet.
And countless other reasons.

I understand if the only baby changing facilities are in the disabled toilets and you need to change your baby. But it is unacceptable to use the disabled toilets because you don’t want to take your child in with you to whatever toilet matches your sex. If you want another option campaign for one.

Don’t use the disabled toilets if you are not disabled

in fact he mentioned he's had a few positive comments from women saying what a lovely dad to take her in
Yeah sure, that happened…

You wouldn’t know them Too they go to another school

My dad always took us into the mens & my BIL always took my niece into the mens as well. I can’t imagine it ever occurred to them to go into the ladies

It is a difficult issues - and the ideal would be toilets which were individual complete with wash basin so they can be used by anyone. Some restaurants have these - but most places don't.

The point about this is when face with what to do people need to make an immediate decision - in the OPs case a dilemma is given. I am sure everyone will look at the circumstance of the facilities that are available and if possible use individual cubical if available if not male toilets if they are not appropriate then baby /parent facitilies, if not then disabled toilets. People will not rush ahead if they see long queues of people waiting for disabled toilets, but if they are free and not being used then that is the best of course of action.

We could list a host of scenarios but they aren't always helpful as there are so many different scenarios or "what if". Yes campaign for faculties but these do not magically appear overnight so meanwhile people make decisions and I would say that most people use common sense and are considerate. For the most part disabled toilets are not used but they are I agree essential and important for those who cannot access non-disabled toilets

IndigoandCerulean:

Don’t use the disabled toilets if you are not disabled

A good prima facie principle, obviously. Of course I thought about the issues you raise.

As I think I said, though, in all the times I took a grandchild into a disabled toilet, not once did my actions cause any difficulty for any disabled person. (How do I know? Well, I used to not lock the door ...)

Mostly, in fact, the 'accessible/disabled' space doubled explicitly as 'baby change' facility, as you mention. But, in any case, even if that was not explicitly so, I treated it as such. Disabled friends were supportive at the time (and why not?).

That is all in the past now anyway, sadly. My own age-related disabilities are beginning to apply.

Come to think of it, though, I do go a bit further than this -- more developed second thoughts, perhaps. Here. I am happy that we as a society are more civilised than we used to be wrt disabled access and so on. (We may well have some way to go, indeed.) But I do not share the attitude of certain people that a disability automatically trumps all other needs or requirements. Sometimes disabled people have to take their turn like anyone else. Sometimes, just perhaps, my granddaughter may have needed that particular toilet more than you may have done. Circumstances alter cases. No?

I too am a father of daughters. I've taken mine into male loos on many occasions, and into communal male changing rooms at swimming pools and gyms. The swimming pool we used to use had a clear policy on the doors - no males over 8 in the women's changing rooms (and vice versa), which seems very sensible to me. It wouldn't have occured to me to use the disabled facilities.

I don't really understand the reluctance that some parents have around taking children into the men's. Obviously I wouldn't send them in on their own, but with a male parent or carer with them, I don't see an issue.

I don't really understand the reluctance that some parents have around taking children into the men's.
Probably because that's too ordinary an act then there aren't people telling them how,wonderful they are for looking after their own kids. And they won't be able to post about it on social media.

I don't really understand the reluctance that some parents have around taking children into the men's

When I challenged older boys in the womens apparently men’s loos are full of paedo’s and boys aren’t safe in there . That and men’s are smelly and unclean.

He needs to go into the men's toilets

If a father was to take his young daughter to a swimming pool with open plan single sex changing rooms, which changing room should they use?

This for me underlines how women's dignity and privacy is slowly eroded. It starts by saying that there are stalls and therefore surely there is no issue with men coming in so just be kind. And then the boundary is extended - if so many women say that is fine, surely just a bit more, what is wrong with a man coming in when women may be partially dressed if they have a young daughter in tow, to blur the lines, surely women should be kind... and then if women are happy with a man with a young daughter, why not without?

I don't really understand the reluctance that some parents have around taking children into the men's

Like I said OH nearly always took DD into the mens . Two examples when he said fuck it and used the disabled toilet.

Once when a very drunk or high or both man was pissing in the middle of the floor, waving it around shouting and swearing at who knows what. DD really needed to go and couldn't wait for him to get staff to get the man out first. He did after DD went and the man was still there,still shouting.

Another was when all the cubicles were filthy (piss,shit and vomit) but since it was a small place he just sent DD in the ladies and waited outside. All it takes is one small place with just one person that has some kind of issue to make a toilet too dirty to use. Male or female.

If I'm with him, I obviously take her. If he's on his own it's the men's and occasionally accessible toilets or if the place is small enough ladies with him watching. It worked for us/him as most of the time they'd be in places geared at kids/families so facilities tend to be fairly clean and appropriate for use. Luckily she's old enough now to go by herself anywhere as long as we're waiting for her outside. For the majority of children we're only talking a limited amount of years where it can be tricky to navigate and even then with planning there can be options.

I'd be very unhappy to find a man in the ladies' whoever he came in with. And his plan sounds completely impractical. What's he going to do if a Muslim woman has come in while he was hiding in a cubicle? Or if his daughters come out while he's in his cubicle? He's not expecting to fit three of them in together is he? Seems to me he'd be better waiting outside anyway then they can't wander off. If they don't come out then there's time to ask someone going in to check on them, or knock on door and shout out.

I think option a) go somewhere with single room loos or a family loo. Option b) go somewhere where there aren't urinals and men's is cleaned regularly.

Generally I felt if they were old enough to care about being in the wrong sex loos they were old enough to go in the right sex on their own. When ours were 4-5 they didn't care and either went in men's with DH or women's with me. At 6-7 we would ask which they preferred. At 8+ they went in own sex no choice.

Sorry but he should use the mens or disabled. I would be fuming if a bloke was wondering round the ladies, it is massively disrespectful to the women and girls in there.

The only issue for me would be boys as there could be a safety issue.

My dad has 3 daughters (I'm the eldest), he managed to go our whole childhoods without going into the ladies toilets or female changing rooms.
He also has 5 sisters and grew up in a 2 bed flat, along with his mum, dad and 3 brothers, he knows when women need their space!

I certainly would never be offended by you doing this…I would much prefer than than you taking them into the Gents, blocking a disabled toilet or letting them go in on their own (which in this day and age if very risky!) some places have unisex toilets these day - I really don’t know what peoples issues are, you are behind a locked door! Pls keep doing what you are doing

Perhaps you could try reading through the nearly six months old thread you bumped and you would see the long list of reasons that women desire privacy extending beyond the cubicle door.

I'll summarise some for you:

• Using toilet while supervising pram
• Needing to clean blood-soaked underwear/trousers/skirt
• Adolescents embarrassed about periods
• Muslim women needing to remove their hijabs