Dad taking daughters into the ladies or disabled toilets

[MattDillonsEyebrows]

If a dad was on his own with two daughters ages 4 & 5, would you have an issue with him going into the ladies toilets with them? He says he would call out, that he is a man, and coming in with his daughters and would stay in a cubicle, and also call out when leaving the cubicle. But obviously he would need to use the sinks to wash hands.

Or would you suggest he uses the disabled toilets instead?

The reason he doesn't want to use the mens, is a) them having to walk past urinals and strange men peeing, and b) due to the all too common state of men's toilets in general and even the sit down toilet usually has pee all over the seat and is generally disgusting and he doesn't want to subject his daughters to this.

I personally wouldn't have an issue with this because I agree with his reasons for not wanting to take his daughters in there, but obviously his presence would more than likely make some women feel uncomfortable which he would not want to do.

Disabled toilet is obviously another option, but having seen some of the disabled toilet threads on here, that would also cause an issue if a disabled person was waiting. Obviously a child, is unlikely to be able to wait.

Please nobody retort with 'well the fact that men's toilet's are filthy isn't the women's problem' or similar as, whilst I agree with this sentiment, unfortunately they do tend to be gross and changing that would take huge societal change which let's face it, is not likely to happen soon.

I would be very upset with a man who did this. If the problem is that the men’s toilets aren’t clean enough then he should campaign for them to improve.

I happily send my DD into the ladies as I believe she will be safe. If there is a man in there we lose that. So a big no from me.

Lord, how many reasons are people going to come up with to excuse men using women’s loos?

@Lovelyricepudding

It seems many people do not consider the split to be men and women's but rather men and then 'anyone who doesn't fancy using the men's for whatever reason because women can just budge up'

This exactly.

We are back to the Green Party Men and Non-Men.

If all children are to go to the women's to protect their eyes from men (as suggested by quite a few upthread), then there is no women's.

@Hertsgirl10

Oh forget what I said I didn’t realise what bored I was on, of course there’s hysterics 😂

OP ask on another board.

Who has the bingo card? Here's another: women saying no are hysterical.

This is absolutely not ok. Why can't he call out in to the men's to ensure the penises are away while he ushers his children through, or yes, the disabled is fine imo. Men in the ladies - no way. It's a safe space and could be traumatic for someone

By 5 though I'd have thought they can manage ok on their own

Hertsgirl10 and if the father needed the toilet whilst he was in the cubicle then I guess you would be OK with that? What about if the girls didn't need the toilet at all just him? Still OK to use the ladies? What about if he had a baby in a pram who didn't fit in the cubicle so left the door open?

What about the 7 year old girl using the ladies on her own? Or the teenager embarassed by the rustle of sanitary wrappings? Or the Muslim women who now can't use the toilet? Or the mum whose pram didn't fit so had left the door open and the pram in front? I guess you would think these girls women 'hysterical'?

Always took my daughters into the men's with no issues. My eldest is now just about on to go into the ladies on her own with me waiting nearby. Wouldn't dream of entering the ladies.

If they were boys aged 4 and 5 he would take them into the mens - so equally he should take 4 and 5 yo girls into the mens too. Not nice for the girls but he would be there to help/support/protect them so no issue really. A man in the ladies toilets is definitely an issue.

Honestly I would expect DH to use a disabled toilet with a baby change facility - I wouldn't be happy my girls going in and seeing mens penis'. Not sure what age it's acceptable for DS to come in the ladies with me until but I wouldn't feel happy sending him into the men's alone at 6

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I don't walk round the communal areas with my hoo-haa uncovered so he won't see anything that he wouldn't see if we met in the shop aisles or out on the pavement. I hope he doesn't pee on the seat though

To all the people here saying the answer is for the dad to campaign for family toilets/unisex toilets/cleaner men's facilities - I'm just wondering where exactly are his daughters supposed to wee while he's campaigning? "Start a campaign" is not exactly a solution when you're on a day out and your DD is bursting to go right now is it?

I honestly wonder what world you lot live in sometimes. I was in a women's toilet at a service station yesterday, there were two men in there, and no one batted an eyelid, in fact several women were even chatting and joking with them. They were cleaners. It is normal and commonplace for male cleaners and maintenance staff to be in women's loos. It's also perfectly normal and common for parents to accompany small children of the opposite sex in the loos, and for carers of the opposite sex to help people out in toilets and changing rooms. As long as it's obvious what they're doing in there, I've never in my life encountered anyone who minded a bit or thought it was at all unusual. I swear everyone here must be using loos in some GC parallel dimension or something because it's never been the case that female toilets are sacrocant female-only spaces that never a male may cross the threshold in any circumstances.

Seriously, imagine being so rigid in your ideology you'd refuse to allow a dad to help his daughter have a wee. It's not for "his convenience" as someone here said, it's for her. Do you want to revert to a world that assumes fathers can't or won't care for their young children on their own? What messages about gender does that send to your kids?

there were two men in there, and no one batted an eyelid, in fact several women were even chatting and joking with them. They were cleaners. It is normal and commonplace for male cleaners and maintenance staff to be in women's loos

To start there is normally a sign up if male cleaners are present. So you can use another/wait if it bothers you.

Secondly they are employees. Who will be DBS checked etc.

Big difference to men who just expect women to accept them in their spaces because thy want to use it and so do.

I'm alright Jack.

Men need to make their loos child friendly. Not think "yours is already child friendly. I'll just nip in. Never mind me. Nothing to see here. And if you do mind I'll just parade my kid as a cute human shield! See nice big eyes. you can't resist that surely you nice, caring, women"

Males over the age of 8 need to stop thinking women's spaces are up for grabs if they can make up a nice sounding excuse!

there were two men in there, and no one batted an eyelid, in fact several women were even chatting and joking with them. They were cleaners. It is normal and commonplace for male cleaners and maintenance staff to be in women's loos

I avoid toilets when it says male cleaners are in there

We live in a world where we are still trying to get sanitary products for a basic physiological need by campaigning for it. Some might not get it for another 100 years.

We are leading and showing the way. Men follow the female lead : fight for usable loos!

I love my sloganeering if I do say so myself.

I would say to use the disabled toilets, if I had a daughter 4 or 5 I wouldn’t want them in men’s toilets potentially seeing men standing peeing

That should say "free sanitary products in loos" . Blast it. My sloganeering needs more work.

Artichokeleaves

This makes no sense.

He's unwilling to expose his little girls to a room where male people are toileting, because he's uncomfortable about this.

And his solution to this is to be a male person in a room where female people are toileting. But that's ok because he's the male person. How many male people need to be in the female loos before he finds that inappropriate too? Bearing in mind that it's not at all unusual for male people to use cubicles to pee with the door open in mixed sex spaces.

Yes, we need third spaces which provides family access like this as well as providing for all other people who don't need a single sex space.

OP

This comment, and the one earlier about setting a really bad example to his daughters about women's boundaries have hit home for me, and absolutely made me realise the ridiculousness of the situation. There really isn't a reason for men to be in the ladies toilets.

I will suggest he starts carrying anti-bac wipes with him and carries on going in the mens.

==============

So basically, the Dad here is not actually willing to do the work of parenting. He's not willing to plan ahead and check out what facilities there will be and to choose to take his daughters to places with adequate toilets. Further, he's unable to work out for himself that if the Gents is messy, he needs to be prepared to clean it up for his daughters' sake. He shouldn't need you to 'suggest' that he carry wipes with him, he should have worked that out for himself. Another example of how so many men dodge the mental load of being a parent.

No, no, no - he wants it all handed to him on a plate by other people, the people he thinks exist to meet his needs - women. Be that by them pointing out the obvious suggesting what he should do, or by relinquishing their single-sex space to a member of the opposite sex because he wants it.

Instead of being prepared to make those male facilities work by arming himself with wipes etc., he chooses to just take the 'too difficult, I'll just uses the Ladies and to hell with what the women think about me invading their space' route. What a prince.

I wouldn't mind a man doing this either.

I think what this shows is that men need to be responsible for more parenting, including of their daughters. Then the problem should naturally resolve itself.

If it was a more usual occurrence for men to have to take little children into the men's toilets, including their daughters, then other men would become more accustomed to children being in there and to behaving appropriately, including keeping the facilities clean for children to use. Greater pressure might also be put on those designing men's toilets to ensure the urinals are out of sight and that there is an appropriate level of privacy.

He should use the family toilet or the disabled toilet. It’s inappropriate for a man to be in the women’s toilet.

@Lovelyricepudding

I know people say disabled toilets must be kept for disabled people, but if we think why they need them - because they need to take carers with them to help with clothes or cleaning, because they have limited control of bladder or bowel and urgency, because they may need to change due to soiling, because they may need to wash themselves, etc. - many of these issues also apply to young children.

Maybe, but children are actually physically able to access a normal toilet - whether they are men’s or women’s toilets. Some disabled people aren’t physically able to access any other toilet.

As pointed out in this thread, children can use any toilet, disabled people can only use one. There is usually only one disabled toilet, and that toilet is also a baby changing facility, a gender neutral toilet and now a toilet for young children?

Disabled people are legally entitled to have access to facilities to the same standard as non-disabled people. The most vulnerable people who have no other choice now must wait for someone to change their baby, and someone who is gender neutral and now a family with young children?

Disabled people shouldn’t have to share the only physically accessible space they have with a parade of people who simply prefer the disabled space to the other options they can physically access. It’s like the wheelchair vs the pram on the bus all over again. The pram lost.

Men don’t belong in the women’s toilets. Abel bodied people don’t belong is the disabled toilet. I’m disabled and I don’t even use the disabled toilets because I can physically access the other facilities.

If people are finding that the current facilities does not meet their needs, then they should campaign for additional facilities. They should not use facilities that have been designated and designed for disabled people. There is a reason the disabled toilet is larger than a typical cubical and its not so you can fit an entire family in there.

I really, really wish those saying "I wouldn't mind" would just think for a second. If even one woman would mind, who the hell do you think you are giving away her right to mind?

In addition, if you don't mind a man bringing his children in, do you mind a man accompanying his wife, or a man following his wife to make sure she doesn't get out of his sight or a man following another woman to intimidate her ........

Just try to engage your brains. A woman might have a very good reason to want to escape into a single sex loo in a busy place. Just because you only know "nice" men doesn't mean every man is nice.

Turquoise, I don't think anyone is saying they're going to give away any rights of all women, at least I haven't seen anyone say that, they're just answering the question of "would you mind" and their opinion is that they wouldn't.